# NIMBY in Phoenix: Church Forbidden to Feed the Homeless **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790 "2009-11-16T17:01:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![blinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/43a26b/32.png) [@blinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkie)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/161 "2009-11-17T22:46:20Z")
Our church was banned from airing commercials showing that we welcome gay couples, the homeless and people with disabilities because it was deemed too controversial. Love to know what “Christian” church the DA and judge belong to. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/162 "2009-11-17T23:03:20Z")
> [@blinkie](#): > > Our church was banned from airing commercials showing that we welcome gay couples, the homeless and people with disabilities because it was deemed too controversial. Love to know what “Christian” church the DA and judge belong to. Banned by who, and how? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/163 "2009-11-18T01:00:33Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yeah, that’s fucked up. Particularly if it’s not for the express purpose of feeding the homeless and just a part of their normal worship services. Sounds like an infringement upon freedom of religion to me. > > I once went to a Catholic Church in Red Bank NJ and they had a prominent sign saying that while some churches think it better if you show up to church at all, they’d rather you not show up looking like a schlub. My view on it was that I didn’t want to go to a church where John the Baptist wouldn’t be welcome. Your view would be wrong. If you’re a poor person you can show any way you want. If you have some means please, don’t dress down for church. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/164 "2009-11-18T01:30:05Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Your view would be wrong. If you’re a poor person you can show any way you want. If you have some means please, don’t dress down for church. Because an omnipotent, omnipresent, creator G-d who sees and knows all for all of time gives a rat’s patootie if you come to church in blue jeans, folks! ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/165 "2009-11-18T02:31:12Z")
Clearly, they need to feed the people in need on the bus on the way to church. Make sure nobody brings any food with them off the bus, and then they should have a foodless Saturday service. That way the city would be happy, the church would be happy, and the neighbor who complained about them feeding people who needed it would be happy. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/166 "2009-11-18T03:39:48Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Your view would be wrong. If you’re a poor person you can show any way you want. If you have some means please, don’t dress down for church. Actually, shouldn’t the rich dress down so as not to embarrass the poor? ---
**Author:** ![Crackrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/919ad9/32.png) [@Crackrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crackrat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/167 "2009-11-18T05:25:20Z")
> [@](#): > > - Giving food to poor people who have homes? Fine. > - Giving food to people who aren’t visibly poor? Fine. > - Giving food to people who aren’t poor in any way? Fine. Cite? From the article, all I could tell was that giving free food to the homeless was considered a charitable enterprise. I see nothing saying that if they’d bussed in crowds of wealthy people that that would have been any different. Now, maybe they’ve been having these breakfasts all along, and only when they started bringing in the homeless that they were called out for violating the zoning restrictions. That doesn’t mean that they weren’t operating as a charitable enterprise before, only that no-one cared enough to make an issue out of it. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/168 "2009-11-18T06:18:06Z")
> [@Crackrat](#): > > Cite? From the article, all I could tell was that giving free food to the homeless was considered a charitable enterprise. I see nothing saying that if they’d bussed in crowds of wealthy people that that would have been any different. If you’re giving food to someone who can pay for it, it’s not charity, it’s a gift. (Or you’re being suckered.) Charity is, by definition, giving to those who are in need. So if the ordinance opposes “charity dining halls” then the ordinance specifically criminalizes feeding people who need food the most. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/169 "2009-11-18T06:27:54Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > So if the ordinance opposes “charity dining halls” then the ordinance specifically criminalizes feeding people who need food the most. Er, yeah. It criminalizes it just as much as it would criminalize a store opening in a residential zone, or a house in a commercial zone. This isn’t some dick law targeted at churches and charity halls, it’s just a byproduct of the zoning law that was invoked when homeless folk started making nuisances of themselves. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/170 "2009-11-18T06:58:02Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Except that this wasn’t just pancakes+witnessing, it was a worship service. Something that by definition doesn’t happen one on one, but it is a corporate, community activity. People praying together, singing together, engaging the scripture and speaker and sermon together. Getting a tract and a mini New Testament and a plate of cold pancakes (or a sack lunch or whatever) off of the back of Brother Bob’s F-150 isn’t an equivalent to what this church was doing. And the same could not have happened in a hall somewhere else? or the worship aspect depended on pancakes? Honestly I am not aware of any religious belief that involves a requirement for eggs and flour and milk to be combined with a blessed whisk and cooked in a holy saute pan of Antioch. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/171 "2009-11-18T12:58:42Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Honestly I am not aware of any religious belief that involves a requirement for eggs and flour and milk to be combined with a blessed whisk and cooked in a holy saute pan of Antioch. What, you never heard of pantheism? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/172 "2009-11-18T14:33:34Z")
> [@Crackrat](#): > > Cite? From the article, all I could tell was that giving free food to the homeless was considered a charitable enterprise. I see nothing saying that if they’d bussed in crowds of wealthy people that that would have been any different. [In the actual decision]([http://www.crossroadsphx.com/pdfs/Justice](http://www.crossroadsphx.com/pdfs/Justice) Corcoran’s Decision 11-9-09.pdf) (pdf), the judgment notes that the ordinance specifically targets \*charity \*dining halls, then gives several definitions of charity, all of which note that the receivers are ‘needy’ or ‘poor’. > [@Bosstone](#): > > Er, yeah. It criminalizes it just as much as it would criminalize a store opening in a residential zone, or a house in a commercial zone. This isn’t some dick law targeted at churches and charity halls, it’s just a byproduct of the zoning law that was invoked when homeless folk started making nuisances of themselves. False. It’s a dick law that targets churches and charity halls. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/173 "2009-11-18T15:17:21Z")
> [@bup](#): > > False. It’s a dick law that targets churches and charity halls. My God! A law that targets people who are in violation of a law! Stop the insanity! ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/174 "2009-11-18T15:29:30Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So please, everyone is ignoring the most important point. Please answer this question. > > Is it charity if you feed rich people for free as part of a church service? No, it is not. Is it really worship if the homeless are just showing up for the free grub? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/175 "2009-11-18T15:43:25Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Your view would be wrong. If you’re a poor person you can show any way you want. If you have some means please, don’t dress down for church. Well, it’s Sunday morning, I COULD put on a suit to go to church, or I could go in jeans and a T-Shirt. I guess I’ll just stay home instead. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/176 "2009-11-18T15:57:59Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Lets say, that I am a business man who is out of town, and I have time on Saturday morning to attend services at the Methodist church in Phoenix. I go there, and they have a breakfast, I attend the breakfast and receive care and hospitality. > > Is that charity? > > I really don’t understand why you guys refuse to address the core most fundamental point here. We’re not talking about poor people in general, we are talking about a specific group of poor people who have been introduced into a community by a church, and are causing problems that the church refuses to accept any responsibility for. It’s not about rich versus poor, and it’s not about freedom of religion, and portraying the residents of this neighborhood as selfish, callous bourgeois oppressors is monstrously unfair. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/177 "2009-11-18T15:58:01Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > No, it is not. Is it really worship if the homeless are just showing up for the free grub? It depends. If your God happens to have commanded that you help those who need help, as the Christian God is said to have done, then yeah, it’s an act of worship. It’s doing what God told you to do. Of course, a lot of the groups that claim to be Christian don’t give a rat’s ass what God actually commanded – they’re interested in using Scripture to bolster their own prejudices. But yeah, if you’re serious about being a Christian, then you do what God commanded. And that, quite clearly, includes feeding the hungry. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/178 "2009-11-18T16:03:15Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Because we’re not talking about poor people in general, we are talking about a specific group of poor people who have been introduced into a community by a church, and are causing problems that the church refuses to accept any responsibility for. It’s not about rich versus poor, and it’s not freedom of religion, and portraying the residents of this neighborhood as selfish, callous bourgeois oppressors is monstrously unfair. 49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen." (Ezekiel 16:49-50, New Intl. Vers.) If your definition of “community” is “white middle-class suburb, making money off the plight of the poor, but feeling no responsibility toward them,” then yeah, the church “introduced” into the community a group they didn’t want to be bothered with. Of course, I personally would prefer the homeless over fire raining from heaven, but that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/179 "2009-11-18T16:18:06Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > 49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen." (Ezekiel 16:49-50, New Intl. Vers.) You’re saying the people in this community never help and have never helped the poor? > [@Polycarp](#): > > If your definition of “community” is “white middle-class suburb, making money off the plight of the poor, but feeling no responsibility toward them,” then yeah, the church “introduced” into the community a group they didn’t want to be bothered with. Please tell me how these people were supposedly making money off the poor. And do you know for a fact that this is an exclusively white neighborhood, or that it’s not a working class neighborhood rather than a middle class neighborhood? Or do you just automatically assume that if something’s wrong, it must be the evil greedy middle class whites who are at fault? > [@Polycarp](#): > > Of course, I personally would prefer the homeless over fire raining from heaven, but that’s just me. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/180 "2009-11-18T16:23:34Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > But yeah, if you’re serious about being a Christian, then you do what God commanded. And that, quite clearly, includes feeding the hungry. But you’re also required to respect your neighbors, and to use some common sense when engaging in charity. When you distribute your charity in such a way as this, you aren’t respecting your neighbors and you aren’t using common sense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790.md?page=10)