# Ninth Circuit sides with school in banning American flag on Cinco de Mayo. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512 "2014-02-28T13:37:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/41 "2014-02-28T17:36:58Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Do you understand that this is exactly how school dress codes already function, or were you being sarcastic? > > I also love all the people saying these kids were just being patriotic. Uh huh. And when I hold my finger a millimeter in front of someone’s face I’m “Not touching them” too. Thank goodness the school has more sense than that. Why do you assume that the American kids are guilty of this, an not those of Mexican descent? If it could be shown to you that these kids were patriotic clothing through the year, would that change your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/42 "2014-02-28T17:40:28Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Why do you assume that the American kids are guilty of this, an not those of Mexican descent? If it could be shown to you that these kids were patriotic clothing through the year, would that change your opinion? Apparently there was enough evidence to convince the court. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/43 "2014-02-28T17:44:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Given it’s the country’s flag, and the fact that these kids appear to be patriotic, do you think it’s a reasonable one? Wearing an American flag shirt on Cinco De Mayo IN ORDER TO MAKE A STUPID JINGOISTIC STATEMENT is not “patriotic”. I’d feel the same way if the Protestant students wore orange T-shirts on St. Patrick’s Day. To pretend that the flag shirts weren’t deliberately provocative is extremely disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/44 "2014-02-28T17:46:33Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Wearing an American flag shirt on Cinco De Mayo IN ORDER TO MAKE A STUPID JINGOISTIC STATEMENT is not “patriotic”. I’d feel the same way if the Protestant students wore orange T-shirts on St. Patrick’s Day. To pretend that the flag shirts weren’t deliberately provocative is extremely disingenuous. What is this STUPID JINGOIST STATEMENT yo which you refer? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/45 "2014-02-28T17:47:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Apparently there was enough evidence to convince the court. Can you share where they considered that? Or are you just assuming they did? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/46 "2014-02-28T17:52:34Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Can you share where they considered that? Or are you just assuming they did? I did say “apparently” I think, and as far as assumptions go, assuming they based their decision on the evidence presented to them by both sides rather than some whim seems like the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/47 "2014-02-28T18:05:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Why do you assume that the American kids are guilty of this, an not those of Mexican descent? I’m curious what descent are the kids you term “American” and why you assume the ones you call “Mexican” are in fact not “American”? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/48 "2014-02-28T18:18:44Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Wearing an American flag shirt on Cinco De Mayo IN ORDER TO MAKE A STUPID JINGOISTIC STATEMENT is not “patriotic”. I’d feel the same way if the Protestant students wore orange T-shirts on St. Patrick’s Day. To pretend that the flag shirts weren’t deliberately provocative is extremely disingenuous. As I have experience on this (I worked at a high school) the best solution is to go for uniforms or dress codes, but one big overall “rule” we have can be described as the “learn not to be a troll or jerk” rule. We would not do a good job as a school if we do not teach students that that kind of behavior will not be approved in the jobs we are preparing our students for. For the simple reason that when it shows up in a working environment it usually ends up with the trolls getting fired or the business having to deal with bad PR or even lawsuits. In this case the issue was T-shirts with flag designs. What is important here is that some t-shirts that you can see in the OP article were not flags but flag \*\*colored \*\*logos of a martial arts - boxing apparel company. Looking around it is clear that they have a reputation of having a clientele that is involved in fighting and raising trouble. So much so that when they were more famous (and there was even a gritty reality tv show) that kind of clothing was getting equated with gangs and banned, not only in schools but in bars and pubs as this forum on ultimate fighting - martial arts discusses: [http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f44/tapout-clothing-banned-pub-1068109/](http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f44/tapout-clothing-banned-pub-1068109/) So I do agree with the decision of the court, those trolls were advertizing something else than just patriotism. ON PREVIEW: That connection with violence that TAPOUT clothing had, together with American flag colors (once again, not a flag, but a Tapout logo) is indeed how I would imagine what \*\*Jingoism \*\*is **magellan01**. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/49 "2014-02-28T18:19:11Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > I’m curious what descent are the kids you term “American” and why you assume the ones you call “Mexican” are in fact not “American”? I was just trying to draw a quick distinction. You are correct that many Americans are of Mexican descent. I moved away from “White” for the American kids, for obvious reasons. Similarly, I chose to not use “Mexican kids”. My grouping is not perfect, so I’m open to suggestions. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/50 "2014-02-28T18:23:50Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As I have experience on this (I worked at in a high school) the best solution is to go for uniforms or dress codes, but one big overall “rule” we have can be described as the “learn not to be a troll” rule. We would not do a good job as a school if we do not teach students that that kind of behavior will not be approved in the jobs we are preparing our students for. For the simple reason that when it shows up in a working environment it usually ends up with the trolls getting fired or the business having to deal with bad PR or even lawsuits. > > In this case the issue was T-shirts with flag designs. What is important here is that some t-shirts that you can see in the OP article were not flags but flag \*\*colored \*\*logos of a martial arts - boxing apparel company. > > Looking around it is clear that they have a reputation of having a clientele that is involved in fighting and raising trouble. So much so that when they were more famous (and there was even a gritty reality tv show) that kind of clothing was getting equated with gangs and banned, not only in schools but in bars and pubs as this forum on ultimate fighting - martial arts discusses: > > [http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f44/tapout-clothing-banned-pub-1068109/](http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f44/tapout-clothing-banned-pub-1068109/) > > So I do agree with the decision of the court, those trolls were advertizing something else than just patriotism. > > ON PREVIEW: > That connection with violence TAPOUT clothing had, together with American flag colors (once again, not a flag) is indeed how I would imagine what \*\*Jingoism \*\*is **magellan01**. If you are correct about this, just ban “TAP OUT” shirts. Simple. And I doubt anyone would have a problem. And not all the shirts are “Tap Out”. Two are. One seems to say Old Navy, the other just looks like a flag design, but doesn’t appear use any design cues associated with Tap Out. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/51 "2014-02-28T18:30:45Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If you are correct about this, just ban “TAP OUT” shirts. Simple. And I doubt anyone would have a problem. And not all the shirts are “Tap Out”. Two are. One seems to say Old Navy, the other just looks like a flag design, but doesn’t appear use any design cues associated with Tap Out. Context, context, it is clear to me that the courts saw through the transparent jingoistic move by the students. And really, if I knew that some in my “patriotic” group were just advertising their support for violent entertainment or choosing to do the equivalent of “fighting words” **I would not had posed with them.** Sorry, but I have enough experience with inner city students to tell you that excuses for misbehavior are a dime a dozen, and that they are smart enough to fall back to the old one about patriotism. It is indeed the last refuge of the scoundrels here. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/52 "2014-02-28T18:35:05Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > I’m curious what descent are the kids you term “American” and why you assume the ones you call “Mexican” are in fact not “American”? [The Court used the same language](http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2014/02/27/11-17858.pdf): > [@](#): > > We use the ethnic and racial terminology employed by the district > court (Caucasian, Hispanic, Mexican). For example, the district court at > times referred to students of Mexican origin born in the United States and > students born in Mexico collectively as “Mexican.” We adopt the same > practice here, for the limited purpose of clarifying the narrative. I encourage everyone to read the opinion. My gut reaction was that wearing an American flag should always be allowable, but bearing _Tinker_ in mind the court’s reasoning is correct. The same parents filing this suit would be suing the school district if the students had remained at school and been injured. It’s also important to note that they weren’t _disciplined_; they were sent home for their own safety with excused absences (after refusing to turn their shirts inside out.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/53 "2014-02-28T18:38:10Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > [The Court used the same language](http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2014/02/27/11-17858.pdf): No, the court did not. “American” does not equal “caucasian”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/54 "2014-02-28T18:41:10Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > [The Court used the same language](http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2014/02/27/11-17858.pdf): > > I encourage everyone to read the opinion. My gut reaction was that wearing an American flag should always be allowable, but bearing _Tinker_ in mind the court’s reasoning is correct. > > The same parents filing this suit would be suing the school district if the students had remained at school and been injured. It’s also important to note that they weren’t _disciplined_; they were sent home for their own safety with excused absences (after refusing to turn their shirts inside out.) The reasoning is even more correct when one looks carefully at the t-shirts, not all of them were American flags, some sources out there are leaving out a lot of information out in this case. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/55 "2014-02-28T18:43:47Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Context, context, it is clear to me that the courts saw through the transparent jingoistic move by the students. And really, if I knew that some in my “patriotic” group were just advertising their support for violent entertainment or choosing to do the equivalent of “fighting words” **I would not had posed with them.** > > Sorry, but I have enough experience with inner city students to tell you that excuses for misbehavior are a dime a dozen, and that they are smart enough to fall back to the old one about patriotism. > > It is indeed the last refuge of the scoundrels here. I’m sure you feel that patriots equate with scoundrels, but this claim of jingoism is ridiculous. And you didn’t answer my question: why not just ban all chirrs having to do with Tap Out or any other company associated with fighting? (We’ll leave whether the MMA is a sport or not to another thread.) If all the t-shirts and shorts were of the Old Navy/GAP variety, would that be okay? Or is anything patriotically American automatically “jingoistic” for you? ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/56 "2014-02-28T18:44:51Z")
During the revolution of the Glorious 25th of May (documented in Night Watch), the singing of the national anthem by Reg Shoe was considered evidence of rebel activity. [We Can Rule You Wholesale](http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/index.php/We_Can_Rule_You_Wholesale) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/57 "2014-02-28T18:46:49Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The reasoning is even more correct when one looks carefully at the t-shirts, not all of them were American flags, some sources out there are leaving out a lot of information out in this case. The reasoning didn’t distinguish between “pure flag” and TapOut-flag shirts, so no, not really. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/58 "2014-02-28T18:54:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > [The Court used the same language](http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2014/02/27/11-17858.pdf): Well, no, the Court did not use the same language. Yes, they refer to one group as being Hispanic or Mexican but they do not equate Caucasian with American. I actually tend to be very uncomfortable with limiting speech so the actions of the school district don’t really sit well with me. I understand why they felt it necessary to avoid disruption and possible violence but that doesn’t make me feel this is the best solution. It would be more productive to ask the students how they would react to a group of their peers wearing shirts with an Irish flag on St. Patrick’s Day, shirts with the French tri-color on Bastille Day or the Italian flag on Columbus Day. I find it unlikely they would feel the need to wear a US-flag motif on their shirts in those instances. Why such a strong reaction to the Mexican flag in this instance? I’m probably naive to think this would ever happen but it doesn’t take a genius to see there is an underlying issue that should be addressed. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/59 "2014-02-28T18:55:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m sure you feel that patriots equate with scoundrels, but this claim of jingoism is ridiculous. And you didn’t answer my question: why not just ban all chirrs having to do with Tap Out or any other company associated with fighting? (We’ll leave whether the MMA is a sport or not to another thread.) Because it is a red herring in this case. > [@magellan01](#): > > If all the t-shirts and shorts were of the Old Navy/GAP variety, would that be okay? Or is anything patriotically American automatically “jingoistic” for you? Lets look at the definition of jingoistic: > **[Oxford Languages | The Home of Language Data](https://languages.oup.com/)** > > Explore Oxford Languages, the home of world-renowned language data. > [@](#): > > Extreme patriotism, especially in the form of aggressive or warlike foreign policy. At the time of the suspension TapOut was getting the fame of having their customers identifying with violence and gangs, (As I have seen it, even police helps schools identify the trends or the clothing used by gangs to get around no gang colors rules) those “customers” were advertising their bully or fighting ideals, add the American colors, and then having the ones that did the less inflammatory move of using just the flag join the ones that were indeed jingoistic and I think that they are only fooling a few into believing that patriotism was the main issue. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/60 "2014-02-28T18:59:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The reasoning didn’t distinguish between “pure flag” and TapOut-flag shirts, so no, not really. Sometimes on the issue of school rules, I had to look and check for gang related apparel, so I have to tell you that it was an issue for the school. That reasoning is strongly implied in the end when the courts report that schools have to have space to make decisions like this one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512.md?page=4)