# Ninth Circuit sides with school in banning American flag on Cinco de Mayo. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512 "2014-02-28T13:37:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/81 "2014-02-28T20:12:28Z")
If I were the parents of one of the kids that were sent home, I would have no problem if my child engaged in disobedience of the request every single fucking day. It would be glorious if a large portion of the school took it upon themselves to dress in flags of any country, every day as a giant fuck you to the school. I also think the court got it right based on precedent. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/82 "2014-02-28T20:18:01Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Wow. You and I are living in two different realities. Well, that’s hardly news. > [@](#): > > There are plenty of immigrants, particularly those of Mexican descent living in CA and the Southwest who do NOT like Americans. You might want to look up “Reconquista” and “La Raza”. There really aren’t. The Reconquista movement is pretty much non-existant outside of a few college campuses. And what’s wrong with La Raza? > [@](#): > > The most likely take is that the Mexican kids wanted to celebrate Cinco de Mayo without having to have American kids show patriotism for their country on the same day. Now we can argue if that is a dickish move or not, but this is a perfect example of the concept of the “Heckler’s Veto” that Bricker brought up. And it seems to be a VERY bad precedent to set. If that were the case, I would certainly agree this was a bad move. It just does not strike me as particularly likely. Would you agree that if a group of students were using the American flag as a deliberate symbol of their hatred of immigrants, the school would be justified in stopping them? > [@](#): > > Care to opine on the hypothetical I raised with the gay kids? I think that would be very bad, just as I think it would be bad if kids were attacked just for being American. But I don’t think that’s what happened here. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/83 "2014-02-28T20:30:12Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > We already know about your s/QUOTE]ources. They concentrate only on a small segment of the community with ties to Mexico. Again, :roll eyes:. New schtick, please. And I agree that it is a small percent of the overall population that sign-on to the racist La Raza stupidity. But guess where they tend to be located? > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Only that it was not just that, insults and threats flew first. Stop pushing ignorance and I have to mention here that a lot of the students are not really Mexicans, but just like the Irish they remember where their families came from. As I already asked you, any cites of the kids wearing the flag threatening anyone? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/84 "2014-02-28T20:30:40Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I read the opinion. I didn’t see where the any kid wearing the American flag made any threats. If so, send his ass home with a kick on the way out the door. The threats were made in the other direction—against the American flag-wearing kids. If you read differently, please cite it. [https://casetext.com/case/dariano-v-morgan-hill-unified-school-district](https://casetext.com/case/dariano-v-morgan-hill-unified-school-district) > [@](#): > > BACKGROUND > > This case arose out of the events of May 5, 2010, Cinco de Mayo, at Live Oak High School (“Live Oak” or “the School”), part of the Morgan Hill Unified School District in Northern California. The Cinco de Mayo celebration was presented in the “spirit of cultural appreciation.” It was described as honoring “the pride and community strength of the Mexican people who settled this valley and who continue to work here.” The school likened it to St. Patrick’s Day or Oktoberfest. The material facts are not in dispute. > > \*\*Live Oak had a history of violence among students, some gang-related and some drawn along racial lines. In the six years that Nick Boden served as principal, he observed at least thirty fights on campus, both between gangs and between Caucasian and Hispanic students. A police officer is stationed on campus every day to ensure safety on school grounds. > > On Cinco de Mayo in 2009, a year before the events relevant to this appeal, there was an altercation on campus _5 between a group of predominantly Caucasian students and a group of Mexican students. 2 The groups exchanged profanities and threats. **Some students hung a makeshift American flag on one of the trees on campus, and as they did, the group of Caucasian students began clapping and chanting “USA.” A group of Mexican students had been walking around with the Mexican flag, and in response to the white students’ flag-raising, one Mexican student shouted "f** _ them white boys, f\*\*\* them white boys." When Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez told the student to stop using profane language, the student said, “But Rodriguez, they are racist. They are being racist. F\*\*\* them white boys. Let’s f\*\*\* them up.” Rodriguez removed the student from the area. > > At least one party to this appeal, student M.D., wore American flag clothing to school on Cinco de Mayo 2009. M.D. was approached by a male student who, in the words of the district court, “shoved a Mexican flag at him and said something in Spanish expressing anger at [M.D.’S] clothing.” > [@magellan01](#): > > Again, can you cite this? If a kid makes a threat, I wouldn’t bother asking him to turn his shirt inside out, I’d send him home. Or in extraordinary circumstances, bring in the police., if that made sense. Timeline issues again, the past threats were taken into account, the refusal to turn the shirts inside out took place under that context, that some students choose to follow the lead of one of the past perpetrators falls into the old “if someone jumped out of a bridge will you do it too?” admonition that many students that are defying authority do not care at the time they decide to be jerks. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/85 "2014-02-28T20:33:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And what’s wrong with La Raza? They’re brown and call out White male privilege. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/86 "2014-02-28T20:35:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Again, :roll eyes:. New schtick, please. And I agree that it is a small percent of the overall population that sign-on to the racist La Raza stupidity. But guess where they tend to be located? In reality it is you who needs to stop grasping to so many straws. > [@magellan01](#): > > As I already asked you, any cites of the kids wearing the flag threatening anyone? It was in the court report. Not my problem if your insistence only shows that in reality you only read what supported your position. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/87 "2014-02-28T20:46:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, that’s hardly news. Mine’s better. ; ) > [@Miller](#): > > There really aren’t. The Reconquista movement is pretty much non-existant outside of a few college campuses. > > And what’s wrong with La Raza? This for another thread, but it is overtly and thoroughly racist. > [@Miller](#): > > If that were the case, I would certainly agree this was a bad move. It just does not strike me as particularly likely. > > Would you agree that if a group of students were using the American flag as a deliberate symbol of their hatred of immigrants, the school would be justified in stopping them? I don’t think so. The reason is that, while I agree that meanings of symbols can shift, even be appropriated for ill, something as powerful as the American flag is resilient to that change. And even if it can be appropriated for another meaning, there is so much attached to it that it does not cease standing for what it’s stood for for decades. So, I don’t thing your hypothetical plays out the way you suggested. > [@Miller](#): > > I think that would be very bad, just as I think it would be bad if kids were attacked just for being American. But I don’t think that’s what happened here. I agree that they were not threatened/attacked for just being American, but for displaying pride in being American—on that day. And what comes after the dash there in no way excuses the behavior of the kids celebrating Cinco de Mayo. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/88 "2014-02-28T21:02:19Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > [https://casetext.com/case/dariano-v-morgan-hill-unified-school-district](https://casetext.com/case/dariano-v-morgan-hill-unified-school-district) > > Timeline issues again, the past threats were taken into account, the refusal to turn the shirts inside out took place under that context, that some students choose to follow the lead of one of the past perpetrators falls into the old “if someone jumped out of a bridge will you do it too?” admonition that many students that are defying authority do not care at the time they decide to be jerks. So, no cites as to what you claimed, huh? But even if you were correct, why weren’t the Cinco de Mayo celebrators sent home, as well? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/89 "2014-02-28T21:03:45Z")
> [@andros](#): > > They’re brown and call out White male privilege. Duh. White privilege. The Mexican culture is extremely chauvinistic. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/90 "2014-02-28T21:10:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t think so. The reason is that, while I agree that meanings of symbols can shift, even be appropriated for ill, something as powerful as the American flag is resilient to that change. And even if it can be appropriated for another meaning, there is so much attached to it that it does not cease standing for what it’s stood for for decades. So, I don’t thing your hypothetical plays out the way you suggested. I don’t think you’re quite following what I’m saying. It has nothing to do with the strength or resilience of a particular symbol, or the symbol losing it’s original or commonly accepted meaning in any way. If someone says, “When I say X, I mean Y,” then when that person says X, he means Y - even if no one else agrees that X means Y. Maybe it would help to think of it like a code? If two racists agree that every time they say “seagull,” they mean “nigger,” then its reasonable to treat them like they said “nigger” every time they say “seagull.” > [@](#): > > I agree that they were not threatened/attacked for just being American, but for displaying pride in being American—on that day. See, I don’t think the kids were just saying, “I’m proud to be an American” when they wore those shirts. I think they were deliberately communicating a different message when they did it, and were hoping to get away with it by disguising it as simple patriotism. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/91 "2014-02-28T21:11:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s not exactly the same thing. It would be more like wearing a gay pride shirt to annoy people on a school-sponsored Traditional Marriage Day. It would be the same thing if gay bashers were beating up people wearing gay pride T-shirts, and the school reacted by banning gay pride T-shirts. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/92 "2014-02-28T21:16:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, no cites as to what you claimed, huh? I guess magellan01 cannot read bold letters either. 🙂 There were threats and insults, perhaps you are trying to make the timeline and the background go away, but even that is very silly, not my problem that you are embracing that. > [@magellan01](#): > > But even if you were correct, why weren’t the Cinco de Mayo celebrators sent home, as well? They had an allowed reason to be there. In the latest incident it was a Caucasian student who put the administration on alert. It was the background and past incidents that told the school that an intervention was needed. > [@](#): > > Because the record demonstrates that the students’ shirts “might reasonably have led school authorities to forecast substantial disruption of or material interference with school activities,” Tinker, 393 U.S. at 514, the authorities’ actions were permissible under Tinker. We reject the students’ equal protection claim. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/93 "2014-02-28T22:13:35Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I guess magellan01 cannot read bold letters either. 🙂 You can take your repeated one-note condescension, wrap it in the flag of whatever country you’re from, and flush it. :)🙂 > [@GIGObuster](#): > > There were threats and insults, perhaps you are trying to make the timeline and the background go away, but even that is very silly, not my problem that you are embracing that. Please cite that past threats or violence came exclusively from those wearing the American flag. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > They had an allowed reason to be there. In the latest incident it was a Caucasian student who put the administration on alert. It was the background and past incidents that told the school that an intervention was needed. Do you read the opinion RNATB linked to? I guess not. BOTH a Caucasian student AND a student from those celebrating Cinco de Mayo alerted the administration. And it is not clear if either of those kids were those involved in any altercation or just good kid trying to help the school prevent an altercation. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/94 "2014-02-28T22:26:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t think you’re quite following what I’m saying. It has nothing to do with the strength or resilience of a particular symbol, or the symbol losing it’s original or commonly accepted meaning in any way. If someone says, “When I say X, I mean Y,” then when that person says X, he means Y - even if no one else agrees that X means Y. > > Maybe it would help to think of it like a code? If two racists agree that every time they say “seagull,” they mean “nigger,” then its reasonable to treat them like they said “nigger” every time they say “seagull.” > > See, I don’t think the kids were just saying, “I’m proud to be an American” when they wore those shirts. I think they were deliberately communicating a different message when they did it, and were hoping to get away with it by disguising it as simple patriotism. I don’t deny that symbols can take on new meanings, but the strength of the symbol of appropriated matters greatly. Just try taking the Christian cross and have it mean “Tow-away zone”. But I see what you’re getting at, that the symbol has two meanings, a traditional one and a double secret one. Even in that case, the symbol does not cease having the traditional meaning. So one claiming it is being used that way is still correct. I do agree that there was a bit more than “I’m proud to be an American”. But it was probably more akin to “I’m loud to be an American. It’s the best country there is. And we should all be grateful we’re here. And if you think Mexico is so great that you want to celebrate some battle from 150 years ago, why don’t you go celebrate in Mexico. You can do it here, sure. That’s one of the things that makes this country so great. But that doesn’t mean that I have to celebrate with you, or that the American flag has to go into hiding. If you do think that, you can go fuck yourself.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/95 "2014-02-28T22:35:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I do agree that there was a bit more than “I’m proud to be an American”. But it was probably more akin to “I’m loud to be an American. It’s the best country there is. And we should all be grateful we’re here. And if you think Mexico is so great that you want to celebrate some battle from 150 years ago, why don’t you go celebrate in Mexico. You can do it here, sure. That’s one of the things that makes this country so great. But that doesn’t mean that I have to celebrate with you, or that the American flag has to go into hiding. If you do think that, you can go fuck yourself.” And you find this acceptable to say to students celebrating Cinco de Mayo?? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/96 "2014-02-28T22:46:24Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You can take your repeated one-note condescension, wrap it in the flag of whatever country you’re from, and flush it. :)🙂 > > Please cite that past threats or violence came exclusively from those wearing the American flag. I did not say that, (and I say that with condescension) you claimed that “The threats were made in the other direction—against the American flag-wearing kids” that was not the whole history so you are wrong. And I do concentrate on the T-shirts, you are the one that is still basically wrong, the flag was not really the issue. > [@magellan01](#): > > Do you read the opinion RNATB linked to? I guess not. BOTH a Caucasian student AND a student from those celebrating Cinco de Mayo alerted the administration. And it is not clear if either of those kids were those involved in any altercation or just good kid trying to help the school prevent an altercation. And this is meaningless as it does not contradict anything I said. I olmy mentioned the Caucasian kid only to point out that white kids also did not agree with what some students were trying to pull out. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/97 "2014-02-28T22:53:24Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And if you think Mexico is so great that you want to celebrate some battle from 150 years ago, why don’t you go celebrate in Mexico. You can do it here, sure. That’s one of the things that makes this country so great. But that doesn’t mean that I have to celebrate with you, or that the American flag has to go into hiding. If you do think that, you can go fuck yourself." Actually, and there is more ignorance there, the 5 de mayo is not a big celebration in Mexico. It is mostly an American item because: [http://gomexico.about.com/od/festivalsholidays/f/cinco\_de\_mayo\_us\_mexico\_question.htm](http://gomexico.about.com/od/festivalsholidays/f/cinco_de_mayo_us_mexico_question.htm) > [@](#): > > In 1862, at the time the Battle of Puebla took place, the United States was engaged in its Civil War. The French presence in Mexico was a strategic move - by gaining a toehold in Mexico, the French could then support the Confederate Army. The defeat of the French at the Battle of Puebla was not definitive, but it helped to stave off the French while the U.S. Union forces made advances. Thus Cinco de Mayo can be seen as a turning point in the U.S. Civil War. **Cinco de Mayo was first celebrated in the United States in Southern California in 1863 as a show of solidarity with Mexico against French rule.** ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/98 "2014-03-01T00:07:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And you find this acceptable to say to students celebrating Cinco de Mayo?? Say? No. Think? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/99 "2014-03-01T00:14:47Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And this is meaningless as it does not contradict anything I said. I olmy mentioned the Caucasian kid only to point out that white kids also did not agree with what some students were trying to pull out. Oh? Here is what you said: [QUOTE=GIGObuster] In the latest incident it was a Caucasian student who put the administration on alert. [/QUOTE] Looks pretty plain that you were claiming that it was a Caucasian kid, and only a Caucasian kid, who put the administration on alert . Look out behind you. I think that Stephen Colbert sneaking up with his Truthiness Meter. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/100 "2014-03-01T00:40:45Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh? Here is what you said: > > Looks pretty plain that you were claiming that it was a Caucasian kid, and only a Caucasian kid, who put the administration on alert > . > Look out behind you. I think that Stephen Colbert sneaking up with his Truthiness Meter. Nah, just more straw grasping, again, not all white kids there thought like the kids that wanted to troll. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512.md?page=6)