# Ninth Circuit sides with school in banning American flag on Cinco de Mayo. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512 "2014-02-28T13:37:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/101 "2014-03-01T00:48:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Say? No. Think? Yes. Try their best to get that message across? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/102 "2014-03-01T01:51:23Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t deny that symbols can take on new meanings, but the strength of the symbol of appropriated matters greatly. Just try taking the Christian cross and have it mean “Tow-away zone”. But I see what you’re getting at, that the symbol has two meanings, a traditional one and a double secret one. Even in that case, the symbol does not cease having the traditional meaning. So one claiming it is being used that way is still correct. By that logic, every time the Klan burned a cross in front of a black family’s home, they were just talking about Jesus Christ. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/103 "2014-03-01T02:04:05Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If violence is a problem at a school, send home the kids who threaten the violence, not the kids who are expressing their first amendment rights. You misspelled _prosecute_. By the way, for one year I attended a middle school on an Army base in the US. None of us students would’ve been allowed to wear the T-shirt at issue in this case. The dress code banned T-shirts as outer garments and clothing could not have visible images other than the usual logos for the garment itself. I think one would be hard-pressed to prove the school administration there was not patriotic. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/104 "2014-03-01T03:55:56Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You misspelled _prosecute_. > > By the way, for one year I attended a middle school on an Army base in the US. None of us students would’ve been allowed to wear the T-shirt at issue in this case. The dress code banned T-shirts as outer garments and clothing could not have visible images other than the usual logos for the garment itself. I think one would be hard-pressed to prove the school administration there was not patriotic. And that has little to do with this thread. magellan01’s argument is based on the application of the court’s decision in similar scenarios. The decision doesn’t appear to hold up logically if it were applied to anyone wearing a shirt that expresses a legitimate lawful opinion. If a country’s flag is so controversial an expression of opinion then virtually anything relating to another country would follow in it’s wake. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/105 "2014-03-01T05:55:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And that has little to do with this thread. > > magellan01’s argument is based on the application of the court’s decision in similar scenarios. The decision doesn’t appear to hold up logically if it were applied to anyone wearing a shirt that expresses a legitimate lawful opinion. If a country’s flag is so controversial an expression of opinion then virtually anything relating to another country would follow in it’s wake. You missed a large part of this discussion, didn’t you? It’s pretty obvious from what you posted. Don’t feel bad; you can go back and read thru the thread still. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/106 "2014-03-01T07:23:34Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I do agree that there was a bit more than “I’m proud to be an American”. But it was probably more akin to “I’m loud to be an American. It’s the best country there is. And we should all be grateful we’re here. And if you think Mexico is so great that you want to celebrate some battle from 150 years ago, why don’t you go celebrate in Mexico. You can do it here, sure. That’s one of the things that makes this country so great. But that doesn’t mean that I have to celebrate with you, or that the American flag has to go into hiding. If you do think that, you can go fuck yourself.” But why does “I’m proud to be an American" have to be expressed just because someone else is expressing pride in their heritage from another country? I doubt anyone would say “If you think France is so great that you want to celebrate some battle from 200 years ago, why don’t you go celebrate in France” because a group was celebrating Bastille Day. If they did, it would be pretty clear the individuals taking that position were being assholes and trying to provoke a reaction. When a group shows pride in their Mexican heritage what about that causes others to go into kneejerk “USA USA USA” mode? I alluded to this in post #58 but I’ll be more explicit here: I doubt the young men who felt the need to wear their USA flag themed garb would have taken the same steps on St. Patrick’s Day or Columbus Day because others were wearing clothing with Irish or Italian flag motifs. If they did, I think we would be in pretty clear agreement that they were being assholes and were looking to start trouble. I’ve never heard of something like that causing anyone to even bat an eye. I want to be clear here, I don’t condone either side engaging in violence, but these kids were engaging in assholeish behavior and hiding behind their patriotism to get away with it. I would absolutely defend their right to be assholes, but I would equally defend the right of the Hispanic kids to call them assholes in return. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/107 "2014-03-01T07:49:41Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > You missed a large part of this discussion, didn’t you? It’s pretty obvious from what you posted. Don’t feel bad; you can go back and read thru the thread still. Well bless your heart, you managed a snark attack in a debate forum minus any debate point. I read the entire thread. The established dress code at a military base school has no bearing on the discussion unless you’re proffering it as a solution. That doesn’t really address free speech because it then shifts to school book coverings or an infinite number of other items a student could carry, display or otherwise talk about. Any element of a teaching moment was lost in this situation. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/108 "2014-03-01T07:55:44Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > But why does “I’m proud to be an American" have to be expressed just because someone else is expressing pride in their heritage from another country? Because we live in a country where free speech is not just the law but one of the most revered laws. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/109 "2014-03-01T08:12:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Because we live in a country where free speech is not just the law but one of the most revered laws. Thanks for the non sequitur. I haven’t said anything about restricting or limiting free speech, in fact I have taken the opposite position. Maybe you could actually read my posts and try again. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/110 "2014-03-01T08:46:38Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > Thanks for the non sequitur. > > I haven’t said anything about restricting or limiting free speech, in fact I have taken the opposite position. Maybe you could actually read my posts and try again. You questioned why something had to be expressed and are at odds with the reason. How else is that to be interpreted? Supporting one’s country is not the same as disavowing another. If it was the Olympics would be an interesting affair. It’s not like the students were marching in Mexico making demands. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/111 "2014-03-01T09:14:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You questioned why something had to be expressed and are at odds with the reason. No…that isn’t what I said. > [@Magiver](#): > > How else is that to be interpreted? If you read the entire first sentence of my post rather than stopping midway through you might not need to do any interpreting. > [@Magiver](#): > > Supporting one’s country is not the same as disavowing another. Another non sequitur. > [@Magiver](#): > > If it was the Olympics would be an interesting affair. Es un doble! > [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not like the students were marching in Mexico making demands. And you pull off the non sequitur trifecta! Thanks for playing! ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/112 "2014-03-01T09:28:08Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > Thanks for the non sequitur. It’s not a non sequitur. Your question is fundamentally arse-backwards - “Because I want to” is a perfectly valid answer if you have any respect for people’s right to free speech. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/113 "2014-03-01T09:34:25Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > No…that isn’t what I said. > > If you read the entire first sentence of my post rather than stopping midway through you might not need to do any interpreting. what you said: “But why does “I’m proud to be an American” have to be expressed just because someone else is expressing pride in their heritage from another country?" there’s no interpreting freedom of speech. There is no “because” or anything else that follows what you asked. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/114 "2014-03-01T14:00:50Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nah, just more straw grasping, again, not all white kids there thought like the kids that wanted to troll. What? I think you’re confused about what “straw grasping” is. No one has said nor implied that all white kids thought or wanted anything. So, YOU are the one displaying such a fondness for straw. So, how’d Colbert do with the Truthiness Meter on those statements of yours? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/115 "2014-03-01T14:01:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Try their best to get that message across? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/116 "2014-03-01T14:03:48Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > By that logic, every time the Klan burned a cross in front of a black family’s home, they were just talking about Jesus Christ. :rolleyes: No. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/117 "2014-03-01T14:04:58Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You misspelled _prosecute_. > > By the way, for one year I attended a middle school on an Army base in the US. None of us students would’ve been allowed to wear the T-shirt at issue in this case. The dress code banned T-shirts as outer garments and clothing could not have visible images other than the usual logos for the garment itself. I think one would be hard-pressed to prove the school administration there was not patriotic. I’m very much in favor of dress codes. But I have no idea what fearing you think this has on anything. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/118 "2014-03-01T14:24:05Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > But why does “I’m proud to be an American" have to be expressed just because someone else is expressing pride in their heritage from another country? I doubt anyone would say “If you think France is so great that you want to celebrate some battle from 200 years ago, why don’t you go celebrate in France” because a group was celebrating Bastille Day. If they did, it would be pretty clear the individuals taking that position were being assholes and trying to provoke a reaction. When a group shows pride in their Mexican heritage what about that causes others to go into kneejerk “USA USA USA” mode? “Have to be?” Who said it has to be? Of course it doesn’t “have to be”. Not sure where you’re getting that idea from. But there free to do so at any time—at whim. No? > [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > I alluded to this in post #58 but I’ll be more explicit here: I doubt the young men who felt the need to wear their USA flag themed garb would have taken the same steps on St. Patrick’s Day or Columbus Day because others were wearing clothing with Irish or Italian flag motifs. If they did, I think we would be in pretty clear agreement that they were being assholes and were looking to start trouble. I’ve never heard of something like that causing anyone to even bat an eye. > > I want to be clear here, I don’t condone either side engaging in violence, but these kids were engaging in assholeish behavior and hiding behind their patriotism to get away with it. I would absolutely defend their right to be assholes, but I would equally defend the right of the Hispanic kids to call them assholes in return. I think BOTH groups were doing that. Here’s the underlying current: Mexicans have been flouting our immigration laws for decades. There is a strain who simply want the Southwest to become Mexican again. (Of course if that actually happened, it would become part of the cesspool of corruption the rest of the country is and they’d be sneaking into points north and east.) Have you ever heard the chant “We didn’t cross the border, the border crossed us!”? The undercurrent here is that millions from Mexico (and points south) have been saying, “Fuck you and your laws. We’re going to come and there’s nothing that you will do about.” And they’re right. They are taking over the Southwest without firing a shot. [Here’s just one example of the attitude I mention.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montebello_High_School_flag_flipping_incident) Both of our political parties are complicit in turning a blind eye to illegal immigration for decades. And no we have Obama reducing the penalties to companies who’ve hired illegals—and they were the ones it was supposed to be alright to go after! So, the Mexican kids were rubbing that in the faces of the other group. As has been pointed out, Cinco de Mayo isn’t even that big a deal in Mexico, it’s just a way to do exactly what you accuse the other kids of doing: being assholes and using patriotism as a shield. When you rub something in someone’s face it should come as no surprise when they do the same thing to you. So, the point you make about those of Irish or other descendencies are not analogous. There’s no feeling that the country is being overrun. Now, if we had secure borders and controlled the flow of immigration, the smaller numbers coming in would assimilate more and also be more thankful for being here. And that would improve relations immeasurably. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/119 "2014-03-01T14:59:16Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What? I think you’re confused about what “straw grasping” is. No one has said nor implied that all white kids thought or wanted anything. So, YOU are the one displaying such a fondness for straw. Only that that is my point, not yours, the point I made is that not all white people think like you do; they also, like many of the people in this thread, realize that the main issue is to not let kids be trolls. Schools also need more space to deal with defiance of authority issues. The straw you grasp is the idea that I’m making an issue by not mentioning the other Hispanic kid that pointed at the ones misbehaving. More than a straw it is a straw man, what I said about the white kid showing that not all kids are trolls does not imply that any other Hispanics also looked to prevent a repeat of the incidents of the previous year. > [@magellan01](#): > > So, how’d Colbert do with the Truthiness Meter on those statements of yours? Your straw men are more fruity that truthy. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/120 "2014-03-01T15:10:35Z")
I think your understanding of the history of Mexicans in California is somewhat lacking. Undocumented immigrants (from all origins) make up 7% of California’s population. Latinos make up 40% of the population (about equal to non-Hispanic whites). In other words, the vast majority of Mexican-Americans in California are exactly as American as you or I. California was colonized by Spain, and the ruled by Mexico. After the Mexican-American war, most of the the 30,000 Mexicans in annexed areas became full US citizens. There has been continuous immigration since. For example 25,000 Mexicans came to California during the gold rush. During World War II, millions of Mexican workers were brought in to combat labor shortages. Illegal immigration picked up in the 70s and 80s, and is now declining as the economic situation in Mexico improves and the US economy gets tougher. There have always been Mexicans in California. There have been Mexicans in California before there were Anglos. So the idea that Anglo-Mexican relations in California are primarily about illegal immigration is absurd. The idea that “the border crossed us” is absolutely factual. The idea that California Mexicans are all sitting around trying to rub illegal immigration in Anglos faces is insane. Mexican Americans are pretty much fully integrated in to California life, no different than Italians or Poles or any other ethnic group. Again, there are as many Latinos as there are white people. Half of the people you see are Latino. In California, your friends, neighbors, coworkers, family members, and everyone else are going to be often Latino. It’s a mixed culture, and it’s not usually a big deal. But high school kids are dumb and like to cause fights. In ten years, these kids are all going to be working side by side and wondering why they were such jerks as kids. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512.md?page=7)