# Ninth Circuit sides with school in banning American flag on Cinco de Mayo. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512 "2014-02-28T13:37:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/121 "2014-03-01T15:13:24Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But there free to do so at any time—at whim. No? Yes. > [@magellan01](#): > > I think BOTH groups were doing that. Once the situation became one of name calling and threats of violence, absolutely yes, both groups were being assholes. And I think the school district failed by not finding a way to accommodate the opinions being expressed by both sides. As for the rest of your post, let’s just say I disagree with your conclusions on immigration and the threat posed by those of Mexican origin or descent. But I appreciate you making it clear where you stand. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/122 "2014-03-01T15:18:01Z")
And, in my entire lifetimes as a Californian, knowing basically as many Latinos as white people, I have never once heard anyone seriously talk about the reconquista or anything along those lines. Not even at my university that is well known for its radical politics. Nobody but right wing scare mongerers care about an idea that was popular among a handful of college students in 1979. It’s just not a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/123 "2014-03-01T15:21:42Z")
And **even sven** , great posts. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/124 "2014-03-01T15:22:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m very much in favor of dress codes. But I have no idea what fearing you think this has on anything. Of course you don’t have any idea. That’s because you’re playing fast and loose with the facts. And that’s after the intentional misleading thread title. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/125 "2014-03-01T15:53:21Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Of course you don’t have any idea. That’s because you’re playing fast and loose with the facts. And that’s after the intentional misleading thread title. Well, why don’t you explain? I like dress codes for lots of reasons. One is that it would have avoided this nonsense. As fas as the thread title, get over it. It’s just a thread title, that gives a short, quick indication of what is being discussed. If one is interested, they can click on it. Just like even you managed to do. Amazing, huh? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/126 "2014-03-01T16:12:24Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I think your understanding of the history of Mexicans in California is somewhat lacking. > > Undocumented immigrants (from all origins) make up 7% of California’s population. Latinos make up 40% of the population (about equal to non-Hispanic whites). In other words, the vast majority of Mexican-Americans in California are exactly as American as you or I. > > California was colonized by Spain, and the ruled by Mexico. After the Mexican-American war, most of the the 30,000 Mexicans in annexed areas became full US citizens. There has been continuous immigration since. For example 25,000 Mexicans came to California during the gold rush. During World War II, millions of Mexican workers were brought in to combat labor shortages. Illegal immigration picked up in the 70s and 80s, and is now declining as the economic situation in Mexico improves and the US economy gets tougher. There have always been Mexicans in California. There have been Mexicans in California before there were Anglos. > > So the idea that Anglo-Mexican relations in California are primarily about illegal immigration is absurd. The idea that “the border crossed us” is absolutely factual. The idea that California Mexicans are all sitting around trying to rub illegal immigration in Anglos faces is insane. > > Mexican Americans are pretty much fully integrated in to California life, no different than Italians or Poles or any other ethnic group. Again, there are as many Latinos as there are white people. Half of the people you see are Latino. In California, your friends, neighbors, coworkers, family members, and everyone else are going to be often Latino. It’s a mixed culture, and it’s not usually a big deal. > > But high school kids are dumb and like to cause fights. In ten years, these kids are all going to be working side by side and wondering why they were such jerks as kids. I lived in California for 15 years, until just recently. And while I don’t doubt your numbers, if you’re trying to create the impression that this 7% is beautifully woven into the multi-ethnic tapestry that makes up the state, I’d say you’re wrong. There are plenty of areas where you’d be hard-pressed to find a sign in English. They’re are people who have been there for 10 or 20 years and still can’t communicate in English. And I’m not just talking about elderly people. When kids are young enough to go through the school system, they do become bilingual, but many of those who came here just after that are perfectly fine living is Spanish-speakiing neighborhoods. For all practical purposes, they might as well be in Mexico. Also, as I’m sure you know, this article was about the Mexican aspect specifically. It is but a subset, as you indicate, of the broader Hispanic population. Given that people from most of Central and South America share the Spanish language, you wind up with a conflation of nationalities. And it is not unreasonable that White Americans see that the culture they knew is slowly being replaced. I’m not of the mind that this is by itself a bad thing. It’s pretty much the story of America. But by our failure to secure the boarder after Reagan’s amnesty, we have suffered a flood of illegal immigrants. The size alone makes it more jarring for native Americans, and the accident that the cultures of so many of those coming in are so similar further exacerbates the problem. What I mean by that is, imagine if each country in South and Central America had their own language and cultures as distinct from one another as the European nations, there would not be the feeling of one big wave coming in to change the country from A to B. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/127 "2014-03-01T17:39:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There are plenty of areas where you’d be hard-pressed to find a sign in English. They’re are people who have been there for 10 or 20 years and still can’t communicate in English. And I’m not just talking about elderly people. When kids are young enough to go through the school system, they do become bilingual, but many of those who came here just after that are perfectly fine living is Spanish-speakiing neighborhoods. **For all practical purposes, they might as well be in Mexico.** What does this have to do with US citizenship? Cite for a correlation between not caring to speak the English language and being an illegal immigrant? Also re: the bolded portion, isn’t that exactly **even sven** ’s point? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/128 "2014-03-01T17:55:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It’s pretty much the story of America. But by our failure to secure the boarder after Reagan’s amnesty, we have suffered a flood of illegal immigrants. The size alone makes it more jarring for native Americans… I’m sure Native Americans wished they had secured the borders a _looong_ time ago, and that the incursion they are most upset about has nothing to do with the U.S./Mex border. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/129 "2014-03-01T18:56:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It would be the same thing if gay bashers were beating up people wearing gay pride T-shirts, and the school reacted by banning gay pride T-shirts. > > Regards, > Shodan Something [similar](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=713842) was in the news not long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/130 "2014-03-01T22:37:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No. Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/131 "2014-03-02T04:25:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > [Link.](http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_25240543/american-flag-removal-order-justified-u-s-court) > > I understand that the school has leeway in protecting the students, but in upholding this they are legitimizing the potential violence that might arise from kids wearing t-shirts with the American flag on them. The school is allowing themselves to be blackmailed by a group of students who threaten violence. What if a gang in a school threatened violence if a students wore a certain color on a particular day, would the school then be justified in sending home all kids that wore that color shirt to school? This is both asinine and cowardly. If violence is a problem at a school, send home the kids who threaten the violence, not the kids who are expressing their first amendment rights. And this over something as benign as wearing a representation of the country’s flag to school. This episode reads like an article from _The Onion_. > > The school officials have their heads up their asses. And the 3-judge panel of the Ninth Circuit just joined them. > > A question for the lawyers here, what do you think the odds are that the full panel of judges will agree with this? And how about the Supreme Court? I can’t see ho the threat of violence can trump the first amendment. Thoughts? The judiciary in the US have lost their minds. Something has to be done. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/132 "2014-03-03T05:52:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s not exactly the same thing. It would be more like wearing a gay pride shirt to annoy people on a school-sponsored Traditional Marriage Day. It seems that under this rule students have freedom of speech so long as they don’t express that speech at times where that speech is most effective. What if we are in rural Mississippi where every day is “Traditional Marriage Day”? Can the school ban gay pride shirts at all times? Or could it ban speech lauding Martin Luther King on the grounds that the Ku Klux Klan might storm the school? Or if the Klan isn’t that active, do they need to be MORE active so the suppression of MLK favorable speeches is justified? I think that your and Bricker’s reliance on the dicta in Tinker is misplaced. Yes, schools can ban student speech that is disruptive to the educational environment, but I think it is implicit that such a limitation means that the speech, or the speaker by his own actions disrupts the education environment, and not the unknown and unlawful reactions of his opponents. If that were the case, then the school board in Tinker could have simply said that children of Vietnam Vets were threatening violence at the school and could have lawfully restricted the arm bands. And every other speech could be restricted as well: Students want to engage in speech by doing activity X. Their opponents claim that they will engage in violent activity Y if the first group of students do X. Therefore we will ban X. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/133 "2014-03-03T14:37:20Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > It seems that under this rule students have freedom of speech so long as they don’t express that speech at times where that speech is most effective. What if we are in rural Mississippi where every day is “Traditional Marriage Day”? Can the school ban gay pride shirts at all times? Or could it ban speech lauding Martin Luther King on the grounds that the Ku Klux Klan might storm the school? Or if the Klan isn’t that active, do they need to be MORE active so the suppression of MLK favorable speeches is justified? > > I think that your and Bricker’s reliance on the dicta in Tinker is misplaced. Yes, schools can ban student speech that is disruptive to the educational environment, but I think it is implicit that such a limitation means that the speech, or the speaker by his own actions disrupts the education environment, and not the unknown and unlawful reactions of his opponents. If that were the case, then the school board in Tinker could have simply said that children of Vietnam Vets were threatening violence at the school and could have lawfully restricted the arm bands. > > And every other speech could be restricted as well: Students want to engage in speech by doing activity X. Their opponents claim that they will engage in violent activity Y if the first group of students do X. Therefore we will ban X. Yes, that’s the way I see it. It’s very problematic. And as I wrote above, IANAL, but I too do not see this as being analogous to the Tinker case. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/134 "2014-03-03T14:48:15Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Actually, and there is more ignorance there, the 5 de mayo is not a big celebration in Mexico. It is mostly an American item because: > > [http://gomexico.about.com/od/festivalsholidays/f/cinco\_de\_mayo\_us\_mexico\_question.htm](http://gomexico.about.com/od/festivalsholidays/f/cinco_de_mayo_us_mexico_question.htm) > > > [@](#): > > > > In 1862, at the time the Battle of Puebla took place, the United States was engaged in its Civil War. The French presence in Mexico was a strategic move - by gaining a toehold in Mexico, the French could then support the Confederate Army. The defeat of the French at the Battle of Puebla was not definitive, but it helped to stave off the French while the U.S. Union forces made advances. Thus Cinco de Mayo can be seen as a turning point in the U.S. Civil War. Cinco de Mayo was first celebrated in the United States in Southern California in 1863 as a show of solidarity with Mexico against French rule. Interesting. A little ignorance fought there (mine). ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/135 "2014-03-03T14:50:56Z")
why do mexican-american students in an ameirca school get to celebrate a mexican holiday? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/136 "2014-03-03T14:50:57Z")
It’s not a Mexican holiday. See above. As for why: because they want to. Do you bitch about your town’s St. Patrick’s Day parade? > [@jtgain](#): > > I think that your and Bricker’s reliance on the dicta in Tinker is misplaced. Yes, schools can ban student speech that is disruptive to the educational environment, but I think it is implicit that such a limitation means that the speech, or the speaker by his own actions disrupts the education environment, and not the unknown and unlawful reactions of his opponents. If that were the case, then the school board in Tinker could have simply said that children of Vietnam Vets were threatening violence at the school and could have lawfully restricted the arm bands. For the record, I think Tinkler was wrongly decided: I would give public school officials almost complete discretion to regulate student speech. Little fuckers don’t have anything useful to say anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/137 "2014-03-03T14:54:40Z")
I’m provisionally on the side of the jerky students here. Wearing shirts that promote the American flag on Cinco de Mayo ought to be protected speech, even if–especially if–I disagree with the message. It’s not threatening anyone, it’s not a symbol mainly associated with hate groups like the swastika is, it’s not directly insulting anyone or expressing a wish for suffering for them, it’s not promoting anything illegal or inappropriate for children. Is it controversial? Yes, sure. But high school is a time when kids are thinking about issues, and that’s a good thing, not a bad thing. If there’s an argument, it can easily be an argument of substance, and that’s what teachers need to be encouraging. It seems that in this case, restricting their free speech is more a matter of convenience than anything else, and that ought not be acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/138 "2014-03-03T15:14:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s not a Mexican holiday. See above. semantics. holiday, tradition, celebration, festival, i really do not care. > [@](#): > > As for why: because they want to. good for them. honestly. but don’t expect special consideration for something that is not a sanctioned US holiday. > [@](#): > > Do you bitch about your town’s St. Patrick’s Day parade? i live in NYC. we have lots of parades. i’d never bitch about the st patricks day parade. i wouldnt bitch about a cinco de mayo parade either. nor the puerto rican day parade nor the dominican parade. but if you said people couldnt wear american flags on their shirt to any of those parades i would bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/139 "2014-03-03T15:16:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m provisionally on the side of the jerky students here. Wearing shirts that promote the American flag on Cinco de Mayo ought to be protected speech, even if–especially if–I disagree with the message. It’s not threatening anyone, it’s not a symbol mainly associated with hate groups like the swastika is, it’s not directly insulting anyone or expressing a wish for suffering for them, it’s not promoting anything illegal or inappropriate for children. > > Is it controversial? Yes, sure. But high school is a time when kids are thinking about issues, and that’s a good thing, not a bad thing. If there’s an argument, it can easily be an argument of substance, and that’s what teachers need to be encouraging. > > It seems that in this case, restricting their free speech is more a matter of convenience than anything else, and that ought not be acceptable. i don’t agree with you to that extent. i think the kids who wanted to wear the USA flag t shirts are - probably - complete assholes. but when you get to the point that you won’t let someone wear a t shirt with the USA flag, in the USA, you’ve gone too far. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512/140 "2014-03-03T15:17:49Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > semantics. holiday, tradition, celebration, festival, i really do not care. Read again, with the emphasis on _Mexican_, not holiday. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ninth-circuit-sides-with-school-in-banning-american-flag-on-cinco-de-mayo/682512.md?page=8)