# Nirvana's "Nevermind" - why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 8, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294 "2013-09-08T00:01:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/41 "2013-09-08T14:12:07Z")
> [@SykoSkotty](#): > > Personally, I think Soundgarden was the best grunge band by far. I love Soundgarden - I am a SG and Alice in Chains guy more than Pearl Jam or Nirvana (PJ got too…_earnest_ for me and Nirvana was burned into my skull with no effort from me.) But I disagree with your statement about “any Seattle band” - PJ could’ve carried the grunge scene, but SG and AiC could not have. Really based on the songs and the melodic hook. Cobain and Eddie Vedder just have a more Pop melodic sensibility and so you hear that in the hummability of their songs. Cornell and Layne Staley were more technical singers who focused on bringing the rock and hitting notes. I hear the Beatles in Nirvana, and Neil Young’s melodic stuff in PJ; I don’t hear that with SG and AiC. Soundgarden are really complex to my ears - when they are getting things right, they leave a lot of space in the sound and just fill in the edges - Kim Thayil often does minimal stuff on guitar that _just fits_ to fill out the sound. So they end up sounding much bigger. But if they are playing live - I haven’t seen them in person, but seen a few filmed performances - I can see where they’d be more hit-or-miss; kinda like the Rolling Stones. If the pieces don’t come together just right, you don’t get the same effect… ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/42 "2013-09-08T14:15:28Z")
> [@SykoSkotty](#): > > Personally, I think Soundgarden was the best grunge band by far. Well duh. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SykoSkotty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c0e974/32.png) [@SykoSkotty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SykoSkotty)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/43 "2013-09-08T14:18:26Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > Yeah! MTV! > > I’m wondering if one of those early am shows may have been my first taste? > > I remember seeing some stuff that no one would consider mainstream at about 2 or 3 AM on MTV Sunday nights at Midnight CST - the show was called 120 minutes. Of course, once grunge went mainstream, it was no longer on that show. I just wish I’d had a DVR back then. I would archive every episode of Headbanger’s Ball, 120 minutes and Unplugged. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/44 "2013-09-08T14:23:28Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Buried yes, but not really all that catchy, IMO. Good, but not _catchy_. I’d say they were neither buried (agreeing with **Ludovic** ) nor not catchy. They were simple, clear, straight-ahead melodies that just buried themselves in your brain. It was great pop music. > [@](#): > > It wasn’t so much that Nirvana was all that special, but rather that there wasn’t much else going on (in the United States, at least). I disagree with that. There was plenty going on in the US (Husker Du, Replacements, Sonic Youth, Pixies, etc) but most of it was a bit too quirky to fit the Top 40 radio in terms of production and pop structure. (R.E.M. is one that crossed over early to Top 40 from the alternative scene, and I think for the same reason.) _Nevermind_ had elements of classic American college rock wrapped up in simple songwriting and clear production that mainstream listeners of music could get. That’s how I see it. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/45 "2013-09-08T14:33:25Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > When I was managing a Blockbuster store and corporate tried that awful CD selling experiment, we had, I think, six categories: Country, Rock, Classical, Soundtracks and Urban. Better shoehorn yourself into one of those if you wanted to sell CD’s. We literally didn’t know where to put Nirvana (I think it ended up in Rock.) Looking back on it, I love that “grunge” was somehow considered a separate thing from “rock.” “Grunge” is “rock,” just different from the dominant “rock” songs of 1990. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/46 "2013-09-08T15:12:57Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Looking back on it, I love that “grunge” was somehow considered a separate thing from “rock.” “Grunge” is “rock,” just different from the dominant “rock” songs of 1990. I agree. But I also don’t remember “grunge” causing confusion as not being a form of “rock.” I think there may have been some difficulty if the taxonomy included rock and heavy metal as separate categories. In that case, I can see grunge being difficult to place (in the same way some music now known as “classic rock” might have gone in the “heavy metal” section, like, say, Led Zeppelin, which I remember could be found in either section at the music store, depending on the store and what year it was, or Guns N Roses, which I also remember being relegated to “heavy metal” in some stores.) ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/47 "2013-09-08T15:23:40Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > When I was managing a Blockbuster store and corporate tried that awful CD selling experiment, we had, I think, six categories: Country, Rock, Classical, Soundtracks and Urban. Better shoehorn yourself into one of those if you wanted to sell CD’s. We literally didn’t know where to put Nirvana (I think it ended up in Rock.) Threadjack: There’s a movie about the band Fishbone, a group whose music always defied categorization, and they had trouble getting signed because they’re all black, but they didn’t make “black” music. This was in the early 1980s, prior to Living Colour and all the other knockoffs of that group. And several years ago, I read on another board about someone who was in a music store and saw a “GAY” music category. 😕 So, what does gay music sound like? Sleater-Kinney? Tchaikovsky? Judas Priest? Nope, you guessed it: Rufus Wainwright. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/48 "2013-09-08T15:25:54Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > My kid, who was born in 1992, went through a Nirvana stage himself in about 7th grade. I’ll never forget him literally running through the door after school, excitedly asking me if I’d ever heard of this “new” band, “uh…I think they’re called Nirvana?” They were new to him! ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/49 "2013-09-08T15:27:33Z")
> [@SykoSkotty](#): > > Sunday nights at Midnight CST - the show was called 120 minutes. Of course, once grunge went mainstream, it was no longer on that show. I just wish I’d had a DVR back then. I would archive every episode of Headbanger’s Ball, 120 minutes and Unplugged. Prior to the 10th anniversary of “120 Minutes”, a VJ asked if anyone had a tape of the first episode. Apparently, MTV didn’t. :eek: I also knew that “120 Minutes” was on the way out when their playlist switched to awful B-sides. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/50 "2013-09-08T16:09:09Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Threadjack: There’s a movie about the band Fishbone, a group whose music always defied categorization, and they had trouble getting signed because they’re all black, but they didn’t make “black” music. This was in the early 1980s, prior to Living Colour and all the other knockoffs of that group. I saw Fishbone in a dingy club in like 2002 and I think they were touring with one hit wonder extraordinaires Dishwalla for some reason. Strange, strange concert. ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/51 "2013-09-08T16:23:59Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > One day, I put in Weezer’s Blue Album and was jamming ‘Buddy Holly.’ So my friend says “What the fuck is this shit?” He naturally segued into some Nirvana talk, and in frustration I said “Dude, in 20 years Weezer will be selling out shows and Nirvana will be fucking nothing.” I just had a vision of an alternate 2013 in which Nirvana is on the tail end of a decade-long plunge into irrelevancy. They’ve just finished recording a fourth version of “Nevermind,” titled “Nevermind Red” because the baby is swimming in lava this time. Grohl is long gone, replaced by the drummer from Sum 41. The vision ends with Nirvana recording an ad for Axe Body Spray (“It smells like teen spirit!!”). _shudder_ Maybe it’s better that Cobain is dead. (Just kidding… he would’ve quit the band long before they sold out _that_ badly.) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/52 "2013-09-08T16:29:28Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > Was Bleach the one that had _Grandma Take Me Home_ on it? “About a Girl” is the song you probably know from _Bleach_, although via the MTV Unplugged album. ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/53 "2013-09-08T16:54:00Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > “About a Girl” is the song you probably know from _Bleach_, although via the MTV Unplugged album. “Negative Creep” was also on _Bleach_. ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/54 "2013-09-08T16:57:14Z")
> [@SykoSkotty](#): > > Sunday nights at Midnight CST - the show was called 120 minutes. Of course, once grunge went mainstream, it was no longer on that show. I just wish I’d had a DVR back then. I would archive every episode of Headbanger’s Ball, 120 minutes and Unplugged. When I was in college I would tape _120 Minutes_ and watch it the next day. I still have some of those old VHS tapes. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/55 "2013-09-08T17:01:18Z")
> [@Accidental\_Martyr](#): > > “Negative Creep” was also on _Bleach_. Did that get much radio play? I don’t recall hearing it much, if at all, on radio. My guess is that the average listener will never have heard of it, while would probably recognize “About a Girl.” ---
**Author:** ![phungi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phungi/32/395_2.png) [@phungi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phungi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/56 "2013-09-08T17:06:08Z")
If you are interested in the rise, success, and demise of Kurt Cobain, I recommend [this book](http://www.amazon.com/Come-As-You-Are-Nirvana/dp/0385471998/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1378659664&sr=1-12&keywords=kurt+cobain). As for the OP, _Nevermind_ was produced as a significantly more polished and refined work than was _Bleach_ and Cobain’s ultimate goal was to be a hugely successful rock band (in spite of his distain of the limelight. Saw them in Nov 1993 at the National Guard Armory on the campus of Drexel University in Philadelphia… it was a giant square/rectangle of a building, high ceilings, 100% concrete, perhaps the worst venue for a concert… however, one of the loudest, most energetic, and memorable concerts I ever attended. ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/57 "2013-09-08T17:24:48Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Did that get much radio play? I don’t recall hearing it much, if at all, on radio. My guess is that the average listener will never have heard of it, while would probably recognize “About a Girl.” No, you’re right. There’s a really good live version on _From the Muddy Banks of the Wishkah_ that some people may have heard even if they’re not familiar with the studio version. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/58 "2013-09-08T18:20:05Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > I just had a vision of an alternate 2013 in which Nirvana is on the tail end of a decade-long plunge into irrelevancy. They’ve just finished recording a fourth version of “Nevermind,” titled “Nevermind Red” because the baby is swimming in lava this time. Grohl is long gone, replaced by the drummer from Sum 41. The vision ends with Nirvana recording an ad for Axe Body Spray (“It smells like teen spirit!!”). > > _shudder_ Maybe it’s better that Cobain is dead. > > (Just kidding… he would’ve quit the band long before they sold out _that_ badly.) I’m very surprised that Courtney Love is still alive. She must have the constitution of Keith Richards. It does sound like Frances is doing OK, although it’s probably because her mother didn’t raise her. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/59 "2013-09-08T19:35:33Z")
No doubt I’m going to incur some angry flaming for this post, but I’m going to say it nevertheless. Upon perusing this thread, I’ve noticed that one very key element to Nirvana’s success in the early 90s is quite studiously overlooked and going unmentioned. But the fact is, Nirvana’s breakthrough to the national stage was certainly helped along by one uncomfortably shameful fact: Kurt Cobain had teenybopper appeal. Today we remember Kurt as a tragic victim of depression. But when “Nevermind” first hit the record bins, his stand-out feature was the fact that despite all the scuzzy locks of hair hanging in his face, he was still a telegenic, baby-faced teen idol with a cute grin who could just as easily have appeared on the cover of Tiger Beat magazine as on 120 Minutes. People were unaware of the depression, the drug addiction, and the general pathos of his life. What the public did see was a lead singer with angelic good looks that went a long way towards making the whole gloom ‘n’ doom cynicism palatable toward suburban, middle-class, CD-buying teens. To be fair, Nirvana were a good (not really great) band, who did rock a little harder than Bon Jovi. And the dramatic fashion break from the teased-hair, leather vest wearing “Hair Metal” bands made them appear to many people (myself among them, admittedly) as something really new and different. But in hindsight, Nirvana (and grunge in general) really offered nothing new musically or creatively that hadn’t been done to death by 1000 bands before them. Even the mumbling depressing lyrics shtick had been pretty well covered by Michael Stipe of REM for 12 years before “Nevermind.” Their key contibution to rock was really their anti-fashion sense - the flannel shirts and scruffy facial hair - that became the new cliche for “hard rock” groups. I would actually contend that the _video_ for “Smells Like Teen Spirit” did more to break the band than the song itself. And you want a laugh? Try this - watch the video for [Smells Like Teen Spirit](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTWKbfoikeg) back to back with the video for [Total Eclipse of the Heart](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcOxhH8N3Bo) by Bonnie Tyler. Then just count how many visual stylistic tricks the videos have in common (tons of back-lighting, angelic lighting on the lead singer, slo-mo acrobatics, “iconic” representations of teen images meticulously deconstructed, even dry ice “smoke” and wind machines.) Nirvana’s video was supposedly a radical break with the overproduced, bombastic monstrosities of 80s MTV. But it’s kind of funny how much in common it had with a video which is often cited as one of the most over-the-top videos of the 80s. Ultimately, Nirvana were the right band at the right time. They were a decent band, with a few well-constructed songs, and a good looking front man at a time when the record buying public was looking for a new flavor to digest. Nirvana (and grunge) really broke through to the national stage when several music industry executives gathered together in a board-room and said to each other “The whole hair metal thing from L.A. is played out. People are tired of it. What else is out there that we can sell to the teen demographic?” “Well, there’s a scene in Seattle called ‘grunge’ with a whole pre-packaged look - flannel shirts and ski caps - that we can sure base a marketing campaign around.” “In fact, we did a little research scouting of the clubs, and this one band has a lead singer who looks like he could be Shaun Cassidy in 1978! Let’s get them on board.” And so lawyers were consulted, contracts drawn up, and lo & behold – “Nevermind” hits the Billboard charts. ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/60 "2013-09-08T20:11:46Z")
Dave Grohl was not the heart and soul of Nirvana by any stretch of the imagination. He was just the drummer, and that was pretty clearly Kurt’s band, Kurt’s material. I knew these guys when they lived in Olympia. Yes, I was surprised when they made it big too, but not nearly as surprised as when that Foo Fighters crap made it big. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294.md?page=4)