# Nirvana's "Nevermind" - why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 8, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294 "2013-09-08T00:01:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![SykoSkotty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c0e974/32.png) [@SykoSkotty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SykoSkotty)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/61 "2013-09-08T20:29:51Z")
> [@Don\_Draper](#): > > No doubt I’m going to incur some angry flaming for this post, but I’m going to say it nevertheless. Upon perusing this thread, I’ve noticed that one very key element to Nirvana’s success in the early 90s is quite studiously overlooked and going unmentioned. But the fact is, Nirvana’s breakthrough to the national stage was certainly helped along by one uncomfortably shameful fact: Kurt Cobain had teenybopper appeal. > > Today we remember Kurt as a tragic victim of depression. But when “Nevermind” first hit the record bins, his stand-out feature was the fact that despite all the scuzzy locks of hair hanging in his face, he was still a telegenic, baby-faced teen idol with a cute grin who could just as easily have appeared on the cover of Tiger Beat magazine as on 120 Minutes. People were unaware of the depression, the drug addiction, and the general pathos of his life. What the public did see was a lead singer with angelic good looks that went a long way towards making the whole gloom ‘n’ doom cynicism palatable toward suburban, middle-class, CD-buying teens. > > To be fair, Nirvana were a good (not really great) band, who did rock a little harder than Bon Jovi. And the dramatic fashion break from the teased-hair, leather vest wearing “Hair Metal” bands made them appear to many people (myself among them, admittedly) as something really new and different. But in hindsight, Nirvana (and grunge in general) really offered nothing new musically or creatively that hadn’t been done to death by 1000 bands before them. Even the mumbling depressing lyrics shtick had been pretty well covered by Michael Stipe of REM for 12 years before “Nevermind.” Their key contibution to rock was really their anti-fashion sense - the flannel shirts and scruffy facial hair - that became the new cliche for “hard rock” groups. > > I would actually contend that the _video_ for “Smells Like Teen Spirit” did more to break the band than the song itself. And you want a laugh? Try this - watch the video for [Smells Like Teen Spirit](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTWKbfoikeg) back to back with the video for [Total Eclipse of the Heart](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcOxhH8N3Bo) by Bonnie Tyler. Then just count how many visual stylistic tricks the videos have in common (tons of back-lighting, angelic lighting on the lead singer, slo-mo acrobatics, “iconic” representations of teen images meticulously deconstructed, even dry ice “smoke” and wind machines.) Nirvana’s video was supposedly a radical break with the overproduced, bombastic monstrosities of 80s MTV. But it’s kind of funny how much in common it had with a video which is often cited as one of the most over-the-top videos of the 80s. > > Ultimately, Nirvana were the right band at the right time. They were a decent band, with a few well-constructed songs, and a good looking front man at a time when the record buying public was looking for a new flavor to digest. Nirvana (and grunge) really broke through to the national stage when several music industry executives gathered together in a board-room and said to each other “The whole hair metal thing from L.A. is played out. People are tired of it. What else is out there that we can sell to the teen demographic?” “Well, there’s a scene in Seattle called ‘grunge’ with a whole pre-packaged look - flannel shirts and ski caps - that we can sure base a marketing campaign around.” “In fact, we did a little research scouting of the clubs, and this one band has a lead singer who looks like he could be Shaun Cassidy in 1978! Let’s get them on board.” And so lawyers were consulted, contracts drawn up, and lo & behold – “Nevermind” hits the Billboard charts. Sounds like a really long version of post #39 :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/62 "2013-09-08T21:39:51Z")
> [@SykoSkotty](#): > > Sunday nights at Midnight CST - the show was called 120 minutes. Of course, once grunge went mainstream, it was no longer on that show. I just wish I’d had a DVR back then. I would archive every episode of Headbanger’s Ball, 120 minutes and Unplugged. I think that’s the show. Thanks! Which reminds me: Trent Reznor **IS** Nine Inch Nails 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/63 "2013-09-09T02:50:38Z")
> [@Don\_Draper](#): > > Nirvana’s video was supposedly a radical break with the overproduced, bombastic monstrosities of 80s MTV. But it’s kind of funny how much in common it had with a video which is often cited as one of the most over-the-top videos of the 80s. > > Ultimately, Nirvana were the right band at the right time. I would disagree with the first statement. The Bonnie Tyler video is more similar to other videos around the same time like These Dreams by Heart or I Would Do Anything For Love by Meat Loaf. They have that sort of bombastic over the top dreamlike fairy tale quality. But they are mostly musical fantasy filled with some random shit. The video for Smells Like Teen Spirit borrows some of the same cinematography tricks to be sure. But what makes the video different is the dark subject matter. Basically the most fucked up high school pep rally ever with the lighting and the disaffected kids who all looked like wacked out rejects and the motorcycle chick cheerleaders with the anarchy logos on their uniforms and not to mention the weird janitor who felt like a look 40 years into their future. As a college freshman in 1991, I think a lot of my peers could relate to that video. The over the top bombastic rock of the 80s like Motley Crue, Poison and Def Leppard was more of a fantasy of how my generation fancied themselves. Smells Like Teen Spirit felt more true to how we really felt we were. Ultimately I found Nirvana a bit morose for my tastes. After listening to Foo Fighters, I sometimes wonder how Kurt Kobain and David Grohl even got along at all. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/64 "2013-09-09T12:48:04Z")
In Utero is a better album than Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![Sarabellum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarabellum/32/3492_2.png) [@Sarabellum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarabellum)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/65 "2013-09-09T13:13:02Z")
I had zero idea what Kurt Cobain looked like, as a 15-year old girl when SLTS hit the airwaves in my neck of the woods. I heard the song, thought, “WHAT is that glorious noisy loudness! NEED!” And I was making my way to the record store. Simple as that. Also, my mom didn’t like it. Bonus! ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/66 "2013-09-09T13:51:37Z")
> [@Sarabellum1976](#): > > I had zero idea what Kurt Cobain looked like, as a 15-year old girl when SLTS hit the airwaves in my neck of the woods. I heard the song, thought, “WHAT is that glorious noisy loudness! NEED!” And I was making my way to the record store. Simple as that. > > Also, my mom didn’t like it. Bonus! Suicidal Tendencies filled that role for me quite nicely. And, of course, their name freaked her out. BONUS Bonus! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/67 "2013-09-09T14:28:16Z")
> [@Don\_Draper](#): > > Kurt Cobain had teenybopper appeal. He even smelled like Teen Spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/68 "2013-09-09T14:47:27Z")
> [@Laggard](#): > > In Utero is a better album than Nevermind. I will grant that “Heart Shaped Box” is probably the best song Nirvana ever did, but I didn’t think anyone seriously preferred In Utero to Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/69 "2013-09-09T14:50:58Z")
I was 20 when Nevermind came out. I was, and still am, a classic rock fan. I just couldn’t get into the hair metal that so many of my high school class mates loved. I have never been a fan of rap, and metal was still too scary. After high school there was no new music for me. Nevermind was loud and crunchy and I could sing along… well hum anyway. It was new rock I could enjoy. FWIW, I never became a fan of grunge. I liked Pearl Jam’s first three albums much more than anything by Nirvana. I’m a huge fan of the Foos. Dave Grohl was the best part of Nirvana. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/70 "2013-09-09T14:58:05Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I will grant that “Heart Shaped Box” is probably the best song Nirvana ever did, but I didn’t think anyone seriously preferred In Utero to Nevermind. I wouldn’t say that. I definitely preferred _In Utero_ and, from what I could tell, that was not exactly a controversial opinion. It wasn’t a consensus opinion, either, but among my group of music friends, it was seen as the better album. It’s not necessarily the most scientific way of doing it, but just look at, say, the Amazon ratings for both _In Utero_ and _Nevermind._ The former averages 4.5 stars, the latter 4. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/71 "2013-09-09T15:01:54Z")
A lot of people in this thread are referring to Nirvana as “classic rock.” Am I that old? :eek: I was a _huge_ Nirvana fan back in the day. Owned pretty much all their albums, imports, singles, and a few bootlegs. Read _Come As You Are: The Story of Nirvana_ more times then I could count. Smoked Winston Lights because that’s the brand Kurt smoked. Picked up guitar (a sunburst Fender Stratocaster) because it was one of Kurt’s favorite guitars. I liked _Nevermind_, but I honestly felt it was one of their weaker albums. It contained enough mainstream appeal to be radio-friendly, much like Metallica’s black album. _Incesticide_ was their best, closely followed by _Bleach_. _In Utero_ was _okay_, but the song _Rape Me_ was one of the worst the band ever put out. It got so much playtime simply because it was shocking. To answer the OP: _Nevermind_ was so popular because it was mainstream and clean enough for a general audience, but edgy and emotional enough for the music nerds. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/72 "2013-09-09T15:09:21Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > A lot of people in this thread are referring to Nirvana as “classic rock.” Am I that old? :eek: If Nirvana were a person, they’re less than 10 years away from being able to run for President. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/73 "2013-09-09T15:10:29Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > If Nirvana were a person, they’re less than 10 years away from being able to run for President. Classic rock to me is stuff like Eric Clapton, Boston, Led Zeppelin… ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/74 "2013-09-09T15:12:15Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > If Nirvana were a person, they’re less than 10 years away from being able to run for President. It hit me a couple years ago when I was listening in the car and “Smells Like Teen Spirit” was on. I had realized it had been 20 years since I first heard it in high school. And then I realized me listening to it now was the equivalent of my high school self listening to Led Zeppelin IV. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/75 "2013-09-09T15:14:55Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > Classic rock to me is stuff like Eric Clapton, Boston, Led Zeppelin… I agree that the genre that I know as “classic rock” is just a synonym for late-60s to perhaps very early 80s rock, mostly stuff we’d call 70s blues-based rock, album oriented rock, that sort of thing. Has that definition expanded as we’ve gotten older? It’s hard for me to tell as the people I hang out with tend to be more or less in my age group, within about 10-15 years or so. Is 70s and 80s music now “oldies” the way 50s and 60s was in my youth? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/76 "2013-09-09T15:19:57Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Is 70s and 80s music now “oldies” the way 50s and 60s was in my youth? Yes, oldies stations around the country are playing 70s and 80s music now. I prefer to think of “classic rock” as the 70s stuff, but bands like Nirvana and Pearl Jam are sneaking on to a few “classic rock” stations too. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/77 "2013-09-09T15:25:24Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > (Hmm, so what was Appetite for Destruction? Naked Lunch? Last Exit to Brooklyn? ;)) I probably didn’t get your point: _Naked Lunch_ I don’t believe I’ve heard. _Last Exit to Brooklyn_ was something I respected because it was Mark Knopfler’s work. I truly respect him as a musician, but when the CD got damaged I didn’t replace it. (or was this a reference to something else?) _Appetite for Destruction_ was the much needed bullet to the brain of big hair. In my whitebread head GNR were the offspring of The Dead Kennedys. But like many artists, they pretty much said the best of what they had to say in their first release. As for Nevermind, well, it was kind of like that girl you’d probably have dated if she’d asked you but you didn’t have much in common. I liked Nirvana, but I probably didn’t “get” them. I needed a sledgehammer to the skull (like AFD) to get me off the pop. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/78 "2013-09-09T15:29:34Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Yes, oldies stations around the country are playing 70s and 80s music now. > > I prefer to think of “classic rock” as the 70s stuff, but bands like Nirvana and Pearl Jam are sneaking on to a few “classic rock” stations too. When Nirvana and Pearl Jam were getting the most airplay back in the 90’s, it was referred to as “modern rock.” I’m still going to call it that. 😉 Modern rock, classic rock, oldies… when will we start hearing “ancient rock”? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/79 "2013-09-09T16:02:08Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > When Nirvana and Pearl Jam were getting the most airplay back in the 90’s, it was referred to as “modern rock.” I’m still going to call it that. 😉 The stations around here called it “alternative rock” (which had some irony to it, as it pretty quickly became mainstream.) It’s basically what was once upon a time called “college rock” but then, when it started finding commercial success in the late 80s to early 90s, it became “alternative rock.” ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294/80 "2013-09-09T16:23:39Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > I probably didn’t get your point: > > _Naked Lunch_ I don’t believe I’ve heard. > _Last Exit to Brooklyn_ was something I respected because it was Mark Knopfler’s work. I truly respect him as a musician, but when the CD got damaged I didn’t replace it. (or was this a reference to something else?) Naked Lunch > **[Naked Lunch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_Lunch)** > > Naked Lunch (first published as The Naked Lunch) is a 1959 antinovel by American author William S. Burroughs. The antinovel does not follow a clear linear plot, but is instead structured as a series of non-chronological "routines". Many of these routines follow William Lee, an opioid addict who travels to the surreal city of Interzone and begins working for the organization "Islam Inc." > Burroughs wrote Naked Lunch while living in the Tangier International Zone, which inspired the book's Interzon... Last Exit to Brooklyn > **[Last Exit to Brooklyn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Exit_to_Brooklyn)** > > Last Exit to Brooklyn is a 1964 novel by American author Hubert Selby Jr. The novel takes a harsh, uncompromising look at lower class Brooklyn in the 1950s written in spare, stripped-down prose. > Critics and fellow writers praised the book on its release. Due to its frank portrayals of taboo subjects, such as drug use, street violence, gang rape, homophobia, prostitution and domestic violence it was the subject of an obscenity trial in the United Kingdom and was banned in Italy. > The stories are ... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nirvanas-nevermind-why/668294.md?page=5)