# Nixon going to China moments **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866 "2009-07-31T14:21:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/1 "2009-07-31T14:21:11Z")
Note to mods; sorry no idea where to put this, so settled on Great Debates “Nixon going to China” events, are described (by moi) as events when a politician known for opposition to one idea, becomes its champion or helps pass it through. Such as the anti-communist Nixon going to China in the 70’s. Some example of the top of my head The Irish Protestant Duke of Wellington agreeing to Catholic Empancipation The aristocratic Earl Gray passing the Reform Act Anwar Sadat, signing a peace treaty with Egypt ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/2 "2009-07-31T14:35:24Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Anwar Sadat, signing a peace treaty with Egypt Did you mean Israel? Anyway, smaller scale, but what about Clinton signing welfare reform? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/3 "2009-07-31T14:43:11Z")
^ Opps sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/4 "2009-07-31T14:44:39Z")
Arik Sharon withdrawing from Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/5 "2009-07-31T16:01:15Z")
Some of these are just good examples of _realpolitik_. I think that if you filter out all the abuses of power, personal moral failings, foolish extension of the war in Vietnam (;)) Nixon exemplified one thing that genuinely is seen in most **good** leaders: the ability to pursue something that is in his state’s best interests even if it conflicts with his personal ethos. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/6 "2009-07-31T16:26:18Z")
Hey I have always rated Nixon highly for that exact reason, but politics is politics, going againts your own ethos and your political base (to use Karl Roves terminology) is something that too few politicians do. One of the worst failings of democracy. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/7 "2009-07-31T16:39:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Arik Sharon withdrawing from Gaza. That’s what I was going to post. Not a politician, but James Lovelock’s embracing of nuclear power. Gorby’s visits with Reagan. And Thatcher’s (and Major’s) secret meetings with the IRA. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/8 "2009-07-31T18:10:54Z")
Not that it hasn’t been implied, but it bears expounding that the key to the Nixon-in-China model is that your pre-existing hard-line credentials shield you from criticism from your hard-line base. > [@AK84](#): > > Anwar Sadat, signing a peace treaty with Egypt Your simple error aside, I don’t think this is a good example. Sadat was an apparent moderate, rather than a hard-line anti-Israel Islamist, who did something liberal and faced a fatal backlash from the base. Likewise Gorbachev was a moderate whose liberal agenda realized the hard-liners’ worst nightmare. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/9 "2009-07-31T23:25:48Z")
At the time the “anti-israeli” sentiment came from pan arabism as opposed to Islamism, which was not even a force at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/10 "2009-07-31T23:34:12Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Likewise Gorbachev was a moderate whose liberal agenda realized the hard-liners’ worst nightmare. Right. So, it’s more Reagan’s meetings with Gorby. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/11 "2009-08-01T11:49:29Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > “Nixon going to China” events, are described (by moi) as events when a politician known for opposition to one idea, becomes its champion or helps pass it through. Such as the anti-communist Nixon going to China in the 70’s. > > … > > The aristocratic Earl Gray passing the Reform Act I don’t think Earl Grey is a good example, because he was a Whig throughout his career, starting out in Parliament at the age of 22 as one of Charles Fox’s circle, and noted for favouring parliamentary reform. (See the wiki on [Earl Grey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Grey,_2nd_Earl_Grey#Grey.27s_life).) Since he never changed his views dramatically on this issue, I don’t think he qualifies. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/12 "2009-08-01T11:57:25Z")
Perhaps it’s useful to frame it in terms of that old Vulcan proverb, “Only Nixon could go to China”, with the implication that the idea was controversial enough that if anyone without such anti-X credentials made a serious proposal that could be interpreted as favoring X, the massive backlash would have made the initiative impossible to begin with. Actually, I think that might be pretty rare–both in terms of historical circumstances and the kind of leader having the courage to take history by the reins that way. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/13 "2009-08-01T12:04:47Z")
One anectode does come to mind: the signers of the Anglo-Irish Treaty in 1921. Supposedly, right after he signed, Lord Birkenhead turned to Michael Collins and said, “I may have signed my political death-warrant.” Collins reportedly gazed back at Birkenhead and replied, “I may have signed my _actual_ death-warrant.” ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/14 "2009-08-01T14:14:45Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I don’t think Earl Grey is a good example, because he was a Whig throughout his career, starting out in Parliament at the age of 22 as one of Charles Fox’s circle, and noted for favouring parliamentary reform. (See the wiki on [Earl Grey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Grey,_2nd_Earl_Grey#Grey.27s_life).) > > Since he never changed his views dramatically on this issue, I don’t think he qualifies. The reform act that actually came and what was proposed was radically different from what Gray had proposed. Much more extensive. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/15 "2009-08-01T15:32:32Z")
Lyndon Johnson, a Southern Democrat, took the lead in passing the Civil Rights legislation. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/16 "2009-08-01T16:24:19Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The reform act that actually came and what was proposed was radically different from what Gray had proposed. Much more extensive. In what way? can you give some details? But, even so, I don’t think it qualifies. Nixon wasn’t famous for saying, “We can work with Communist China” throughout his career, and then going to China. He was a strong anti-Communist throughout, which is what gave him credibility with the right in going to China. Grey throughout his career pushed for parliamentary reform. It’s not like he opposed the idea, and then came out in favour of it, which is what the “Nixon to China” meme is about. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/17 "2009-08-01T16:25:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Lyndon Johnson, a Southern Democrat, took the lead in passing the Civil Rights legislation. Had he previously opposed it? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/18 "2009-08-01T18:01:57Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > Lyndon Johnson, a Southern Democrat, took the lead in passing the Civil Rights legislation. > > Had he previously opposed it? The “Political death warrant” comment upthread applies here as well. [thread=503294]Self-cite[/thread]. I don’t know what LBJ’s previous political record on Civil Rights was, and I shudder to think what his personal history was, but he knew he was surrendering the South to the opposition party for a generation or three, and he signed the bills anyway. Another political risk-taker: [Yitzhak Rabin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabin) ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/19 "2009-08-02T01:46:06Z")
> [@Typo\_Knig](#): > > and I shudder to think what his personal history was I find that statement to be grossly unfair. Lyndon Johnson was a lot of things – a _hell_ of a lot of things – but racist wasn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866/20 "2009-08-02T02:04:04Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I find that statement to be grossly unfair. Lyndon Johnson was a lot of things – a _hell_ of a lot of things – but racist wasn’t one of them. Agreed. Johnson was surprisingly progressive (at least as far as Southern Democrats of that era) on civil rights. But I’d argue that his Texas wheeler-dealer opportunist personna gave him the same sort of street cred on Civil Rights issues that Nixon had on anti-Communist issues. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nixon-going-to-china-moments/504866.md?page=2)