# NLRB has ruled that McDonald's qualifies as a joint employer of workers at its franchises. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2014, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382 "2014-07-30T01:45:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/21 "2014-07-31T11:47:26Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > There is no job with higher turnover than acting - but actors are unionized. Plus, if the conditions were better perhaps there would be less turnover. Maybe- or maybe not. Way back, when I worked in fast-food, I had a really good employer. He paid a few dollars over minimum wage for those of us who stayed a while and treated us well in general. The only bad conditions were those inherent to the job- kitchens are always hot, there are always unpleasant customers, that sort of thing. Turnover was still sky high, although there were a handful of us working there five years after opening. ``` It's funny you bring up acting, (although I'm not what you mean by turnover-certainly not the same thing as turnover in fast food) because it's a good example of what I mean. My son is not an actor, but has gotten non-speaking parts in a few commercials and TV shows. He has reached the point where the next union job will require membership and he will never do a union job again. Not because he has anything against unions (he's a member of a different one), but simply because joining the union is not worthwhile for someone who is not planning to make a career of it. And trying to organize a union is probably not worthwhile for someone who hopes to leave McDonald's within six months. ``` Just in case you’re misunderstanding me, I’m not saying that fast-food workers shouldn’t join unions. I’m saying that they are a difficult segment to organize. If it was not difficult , they would have been organized years ago just like the retail workers, supermarket workers and other food service workers who have been unionized for years. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/22 "2014-07-31T12:19:14Z")
I keep hearing that more and more family breadwinners are taking these jobs due to lack of other opportunities. I don’t know how true that is but if it is true then that could mean that there are a larger number of workers who might be interested in unionization. Apparently the number of unfair practices lawsuits is high enough that the NLRB feels that this ruling is appropriate. How many people would bring a lawsuit if they didn’t consider a job to be something more than a short term thing for pocket money? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/23 "2014-07-31T14:33:10Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I agree with you **sleestak** and admire the rigor and dexterity with which you’ve assessed the situation. Surely you feel the same way about the types of organizations from which [these 6 thugs](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_PHILADELPHIA_POLICE_CORRUPTION_PROBE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-07-30-17-08-03) sprang? Can’t speak for **sleestak** , but I certainly do. Those six are classic examples of bad union members. From your cite: > [@](#): > > Ramsey has made fighting police corruption a hallmark of his six-year tenure in Philadelphia. He complained that the police contract bars him from transferring officers between units or making other personnel changes without cause. > > “The commissioner is right,” Krasner said. “We have arbitrators who routinely put officers back in the department who never should have been there in the first place.” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/24 "2014-07-31T17:35:10Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > ``` > It's funny you bring up acting, (although I'm not what you mean by turnover-certainly not the same thing as turnover in fast food) because it's a good example of what I mean. My son is not an actor, but has gotten non-speaking parts in a few commercials and TV shows. He has reached the point where the next union job will require membership and he will never do a union job again. Not because he has anything against unions (he's a member of a different one), but simply because joining the union is not worthwhile for someone who is not planning to make a career of it. And trying to organize a union is probably not worthwhile for someone who hopes to leave McDonald's within six months. > > ``` Where did he act? Because when my daughter was acting in New York, union jobs were far superior to non-union jobs, both in pay and in the probability of getting paid in a timely fashion. She was in SAG not AFTRA (this was before the merger) and when she did a non-union commercial which would have been an AFTRA job her manager had to work hard to get her (and his) money. On the other hand, when she was a union extra in a soap opera episode she got a check for six cents when it ran in Italy. And she got tons of residuals from the series episodes she was on which reran over and over. Forget that for non-union jobs. Now, it might be different for someone acting in Peoria. > [@](#): > > Just in case you’re misunderstanding me, I’m not saying that fast-food workers shouldn’t join unions. I’m saying that they are a difficult segment to organize. If it was not difficult , they would have been organized years ago just like the retail workers, supermarket workers and other food service workers who have been unionized for years. I’m well aware it won’t be easy - but there is no reason to make it even more difficult by giving a pass to those who want to screw the workers. If workers honestly do not want a union, that is okay. But the election should be fair. Is it any different from requiring that all running for office have a right to be heard and a right for their supporters not kept away from the polls? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/25 "2014-07-31T18:20:56Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Where did he act? Because when my daughter was acting in New York, union jobs were far superior to non-union jobs, both in pay and in the probability of getting paid in a timely fashion. In NYC and while the union jobs probably were far superior to the non-union jobs, he had already done enough jobs to hit the “must join” threshold and is required to pay the $3000 initiation fee before working on another union job. Which is a good investment for a person who aspires to make a career of it- but my son was a BMX rider who was cast for his ability to perform bike tricks, not an actor. He earned less than $300 for the TV episode, and the series was cancelled after about 4 episodes were shown, so no residuals Wasn’t worth it for him at all- how many commercials or TV episodes even call for a BMX rider per year? It would be different if he were an actor and was planning a career as an actor, just like fast-food workers would be easier to organize if people saw themselves making a career out of it. > [@](#): > > I’m well aware it won’t be easy - but there is no reason to make it even more difficult by giving a pass to those who want to screw the workers. If workers honestly do not want a union, that is okay. But the election should be fair. Is it any different from requiring that all running for office have a right to be heard and a right for their supporters not kept away from the polls? My only point was that I don’t think this decision is going to make it significantly easier for unions to organize. I’m not at all saying that the election shouldn’t be fair. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/26 "2014-07-31T22:13:57Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > And trying to organize a union is probably not worthwhile for someone who hopes to leave McDonald’s within six months. “Hopes to leave” is different from “wishes he or she could leave but face it, this is my sole source of employment for the foreseeable future.” Fast food jobs are no longer the domain of teenagers off the for the summer trying to make some cash for a holiday. People are living off these jobs now. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/27 "2014-07-31T22:23:49Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > “Hopes to leave” is different from “wishes he or she could leave but face it, this is my sole source of employment for the foreseeable future.” Fast food jobs are no longer the domain of teenagers off the for the summer trying to make some cash for a holiday. People are living off these jobs now. Maybe they shouldn’t be trying to. Why do you think I should be able to point to a job and say, I demand that that job support me, my wife and my two kids? Not getting that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/28 "2014-07-31T23:18:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Maybe they shouldn’t be trying to. Why do you think I should be able to point to a job and say, I demand that that job support me, my wife and my two kids? Not getting that. You’d point out that they could choose to simply stop existing I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/29 "2014-07-31T23:23:58Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > “Hopes to leave” is different from “wishes he or she could leave but face it, this is my sole source of employment for the foreseeable future.” Fast food jobs are no longer the domain of teenagers off the for the summer trying to make some cash for a holiday. People are living off these jobs now. I’m sure they are, but living off these jobs is also not the same as believing that you have little or no chance of leaving (even just to go to a slightly better retail or supermarket job) and deciding to invest a significant amount of time and energy into persuading your coworkers ( many of whom are still high school and college students, at least in my area) to unionize. ``` There must be 50,000 fast food employees in NYC, but when they have the local strikes/protests about raising the minimum wage/union representation only a couple of hundred people show up. If less than 1% of the potential members show up for these rallies, it's going to be tough to get 50% +1 to vote a union in.These rallies/strikes have been going on for about two years- and so far as I know not a single fast-food restaurant in NYC (a very union-friendly place) has been successfully organized. And I'm pretty sure I would know if it had happened because it would surely make the news, just as the rallies do. ``` ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/30 "2014-08-01T00:26:02Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Maybe they shouldn’t be trying to. Why do you think I should be able to point to a job and say, I demand that that job support me, my wife and my two kids? Not getting that. What choice do they have if this is the only employment they can find? If an employer isn’t paying a living wage, then what he’s paying for a resource is less than the cost of maintaining that resource. If I’m looking to lease a horse, I have to assume that what I’ll have to pay will be at least enough for the owner to feed and shelter that horse (more than enough assuming the owner wants a profit), why should people receive lesser treatment? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/31 "2014-08-01T02:22:00Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > What choice do they have if this is the only employment they can find? > > If an employer isn’t paying a living wage, then what he’s paying for a resource is less than the cost of maintaining that resource. If I’m looking to lease a horse, I have to assume that what I’ll have to pay will be at least enough for the owner to feed and shelter that horse (more than enough assuming the owner wants a profit), why should people receive lesser treatment? Honestly I’d rather have government aid programs than inflated wages that push out those of us who are willing to work for less than people who chose to have a family. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/32 "2014-08-01T02:24:58Z")
Crap. Sorry for contributing to hijack. On topic, I wonder if this will result in more corporate oversight. It doesn’t look like this opinion applies to other businesses with a similar business model? But I’m assuming a similar case would have the same result. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/33 "2014-08-01T02:33:09Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Having more unions and stronger labor is always a better thing morally and ethically. While companies in the short term may be near-sighted and punish people economically, in the long run, having a wealthier population of consumers would benefit everyone economically. If by more unions you mean multiple unions that can compete for the same worker’s, yes, that is a good thing and leads to genuine representation of workers due to the fact bad unions would get voted out. If you just mean more unions like we have in America where they get a monopoly on their labor force then no, that’s bad for everyone on an ethical level and far more importantly a practical one. I’m also curious to know what the difference between “morally” and “ethically” is. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/34 "2014-08-01T03:01:13Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Honestly I’d rather have government aid programs than inflated wages that push out those of us who are willing to work for less than people who chose to have a family. What if it could be shown that a living wage at McDonald’s would not require them to eliminate _any_ jobs? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/35 "2014-08-01T03:02:25Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > If by more unions you mean multiple unions that can compete for the same worker’s, yes, that is a good thing and leads to genuine representation of workers due to the fact bad unions would get voted out. If you just mean more unions like we have in America where they get a monopoly on their labor force then no, that’s bad for everyone on an ethical level and far more importantly a practical one. I’m also curious to know what the difference between “morally” and “ethically” is. Actually, this is the result of America’s anti-union labor law. Anyone should be able to join any union at any time and his or her employer should immediately be required to treat the union as the employee’s representative and be blocked from dismissing him or her without cause. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/36 "2014-08-01T03:10:04Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What if it could be shown that a living wage at McDonald’s would not require them to eliminate _any_ jobs? If my living wage is lower than your living wage, do I get to take your job? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/37 "2014-08-01T03:20:05Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Actually, this is the result of America’s anti-union labor law. Anyone should be able to join any union at any time and his or her employer should immediately be required to treat the union as the employee’s representative and be blocked from dismissing him or her without cause. Fine with me, so long as the employer wanting to pay me instead of you is cause to can you. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/38 "2014-08-01T03:26:26Z")
I’m interested if this decision has potential to affect the regularity of work hours. You can do very well on minimum wage if you’re able to work 70+ hours per week. But it’s hard to get a 2nd job if you have to be available for the first all of the time. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/39 "2014-08-01T10:11:39Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I’m interested if this decision has potential to affect the regularity of work hours. You can do very well on minimum wage if you’re able to work 70+ hours per week. But it’s hard to get a 2nd job if you have to be available for the first all of the time. This is a big issue. Some of these low wage part time jobs expect you to be available at a moment’s notice. This makes it difficult to hold down, for example, two 20 hour jobs. If you’re expected to be on call, then you should be compensated for the time you’re on call since you could otherwise use that time for other income producing activity. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382/40 "2014-08-01T11:10:55Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > If my living wage is lower than your living wage, do I get to take your job? I don’t know whether you’re being intentionally obtuse, but this is a nonsensical use of the term “living wage.” > [@Ruken](#): > > Fine with me, so long as the employer wanting to pay me instead of you is cause to can you. “Cause” has a specific meaning in employment law and “because the employer wants to” is not it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nlrb-has-ruled-that-mcdonalds-qualifies-as-a-joint-employer-of-workers-at-its-franchises/694382.md?page=3)