# No Air America pit? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 6, 2005, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847 "2005-08-06T04:12:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/41 "2005-08-06T22:15:04Z")
> [@lindacohen](#): > > Perchance because they didn’t actually leak anything and didn’t steal money from orphans and alzheimer’s patients? The Plame scandal has already one person in jail, no one is even considered even to be a candidate for the same in this “affair”, the leak scandal is serious, the other is silly _if one tries to imply Air America in it_. Also: Cohen got canned for this and other improprieties BEFORE the end of the investigations, OTOH the administration has been caught lying about having no leakers or that Rove was not involved on that. The leadership shown so far on the Plame scandal is non-existent, it is proof for me that Bush already knows but he is not willing to do anything, the fish rots from the head. ---
**Author:** ![lindacohen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a698b9/32.png) [@lindacohen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindacohen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/42 "2005-08-06T22:25:12Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > This remark appears to be intentially obtuse and, um, intentially annoying. > > IMHO, it conflicts with the mission of this board, which is fighting ignorance. > > One way of separating the forthright from the dishonest is to observe how they react to new information. Regretfully, I tentatively conclude that lindacohen’s defensive posture reflects a poor character. > > Valerie Plame’s contacts remain threatened. Current agents face challenges when assuring foreign contacts that the US will keep their identities hidden. The investigation of Karl Rove and the 2nd leaker continues. cite? ---
**Author:** ![lindacohen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a698b9/32.png) [@lindacohen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindacohen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/43 "2005-08-06T22:26:20Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The Plame scandal has already one person in jail, no one is even considered even to be a candidate for the same in this “affair”, the leak scandal is serious, the other is silly _if one tries to imply Air America in it_. > > Also: Cohen got canned for this and other improprieties BEFORE the end of the investigations, OTOH the administration has been caught lying about having no leakers or that Rove was not involved on that. The leadership shown so far on the Plame scandal is non-existent, it is proof for me that Bush already knows but he is not willing to do anything, the fish rots from the head. cite? ---
**Author:** ![lindacohen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a698b9/32.png) [@lindacohen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindacohen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/44 "2005-08-06T22:29:35Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > This remark appears to be intentially obtuse and, um, intentially annoying. > > IMHO, it conflicts with the mission of this board, which is fighting ignorance. > > One way of separating the forthright from the dishonest is to observe how they react to new information. Regretfully, I tentatively conclude that lindacohen’s defensive posture reflects a poor character. > > Valerie Plame’s contacts remain threatened. Current agents face challenges when assuring foreign contacts that the US will keep their identities hidden. The investigation of Karl Rove and the 2nd leaker continues. Intentionally obtuse? Let me clear it up for you mate, has Rove been charged with anything or jailed? Is your only resort to my query re: Air America an ad hominem attack? Give me a cite that states Plame’s “contacts remain threatened.” ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/45 "2005-08-06T22:30:04Z")
> [@lindacohen](#): > > By the by, Cohen was an employee of both the club and Air America methinks, and excusing both for the incident is analagous to Republicans excusing all the big folk for the little folks’ screwups, ala Rove, Liddy, et al. [spit take] Rove and “Liddy” (Libby?)] are the “little folks?” [/spit take] ---
**Author:** ![lindacohen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a698b9/32.png) [@lindacohen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindacohen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/46 "2005-08-06T22:31:04Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > [spit take] > Rove and “Liddy” (Libby?)] are the “little folks?” > [/spit take] Aye, compared to the office of the President of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Ava\_Gina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Ava\_Gina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ava_Gina)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/47 "2005-08-06T22:44:09Z")
> [@lindacohen](#): > > Aye, compared to the office of the President of the United States. Eh, Rove is Bush’s brain. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/48 "2005-08-06T22:44:30Z")
> [@lindacohen](#): > > cite? [http://www.larouchepub.com/other/govt\_docs/2005/3231dem\_plame\_hrg.html](http://www.larouchepub.com/other/govt_docs/2005/3231dem_plame_hrg.html) > [@](#): > > Intelligence Agents Expose Crime > Behind The Plame Leak > The Senate Democratic Policy Committee and Democratic members of the House Government Reform Committee held a forum on the Valerie Plame leak investigation on July 22, which featured leading members of the intelligence community, who spoke on the implications and dimensions of the crime. The leak of the identity of undercover CIA agent Valerie Plame, wife of former Ambassador Joe Wilson, is the subject of an ongoing Federal grand jury. Here are major excerpts of the event, which was given short shrift in the print media. Subheads have been added. … Col. Patrick Lang (ret.), a decorated veteran of the Defense Intelligence Agency. … > [@](#): > > So when you have an instance like this, in fact, in which not just the intelligence community, but the elected government of the sponsoring government, of the major country in the world, deliberately, and apparently for trivial and passing political reasons, decides to disclose the identity of a covert officer, the word goes around the world like a shock, in fact, that, in fact, “The Americans can’t be trusted—the Americans can’t be trusted. If you decide to cooperate clandestinely with the Americans, someone back there will give you up—someone will give you up, and then everything will be over for you.” So you don’t do it. > And so the very kinds of people you need to get into the heart of this galaxy of jihadi groups and people like this, will make a judgment that they are not going to trust you in this way. And once that happens, then the possibility of penetrating these groups, the possibility of knowing that they’re going to carry 10-pound bags of explosive in the subway stations, will go right down the drain. > It will be done forever. It would take forever to get that back, because this is all about trust and this is a violation of trust. The next speaker was Larry Johnson, a former CIA analyst, who also worked at the U.S. State Department’s Office of Counterterrorism from 1989 to 1993. > [@](#): > > Now, regardless of whether you’re under official or nonofficial cover, you are under cover; that’s a protected identity. When I left the Central Intelligence Agency on Sept. 30 of 1989, the day I walked out the door, my cover was lifted. Up to that point, I had been sitting at a desk, but I was undercover, and release of my name would have been a violation, at least, under the law, although I had not served overseas. > > But in Valerie’s case, she went to the nonofficial cover which simply means you don’t have the protection of the U.S. government. You may operate under a U.S. passport, you may operate under some other passport. But if you’re caught engaged with espionage overseas, you could be executed. You have no protection under the Geneva Conventions. > > And it’s this lie, first and foremost, I want to put to bed. Because you’ve had the Republican National Committee sending out members of Congress, like Congressman Peter King and Roy Blunt, who are perpetuating a lie. And I think it is inappropriate for members of the Senate and the House to go on national television—and I’ve seen individuals even such as Senator Hatch insist that this is of no consequence, and that’s relevant because Senator Hatch is the one who wrote my recommendation letter getting me in the CIA. > > I will not stand for any American official to launch these unwarranted, unfair attacks and mislead the American people on issues so basic. > > There have been efforts to say, well—the Washington Times quoted a former supervisor, Fred Rustman, saying, “Oh, her cover was light.” This is not true. Fred Rustman left the agency in 1990 and he was not aware of anything that happened subsequent to that, because he was not in social contact with Valerie or Joe Wilson. And he was not in a position to know. And that’s how it’s been with the agency and throughout the intelligence community; it’s called “the need to know.” > > We’re told that Valerie was just a desk jockey; didn’t do anything important. If you just sit at a desk, you’re not an intelligence officer. > > It is that expression by people who are on intelligence committees, to display such gross ignorance at times, that makes me wonder if they have been asleep at the meetings, to not understand how this system works and the requirements and obligations for protecting people. > > The last lie I want to put to bed—and unfortunately the Senate Intelligence Committee report on this helped feed the flame—and that is, that Valerie sent her husband on the mission to Niger. > > Now, apart from the fact that in February of 2002, when Valerie allegedly sent Joe Wilson on this mission, at that time the Administration did not have a clear, publicly defined position stipulating that, in fact, Iraq was selling uranium or trying to acquire uranium from Niger. So it mystifies me how a low-level case officer could on her own discern what the Administration’s policy subsequently would be, so she could put in place this dastardly scheme to send her husband to Niger to find out that that was false so that then she could embarrass the Administration a year and a half later. > > That is laughable. > > But the reality is, Valerie was not a manager. When the referral came, when Vice President Cheney’s office—when Vice President Cheney himself asked the CIA briefer, “What about the Defense Intelligence Agency report that Iraq is trying to acquire uranium from Niger?”—the briefer said, “We’ll check it out.” Went back—the process works at headquarters in this way—the briefer comes back, meets with the office directors, who are the very senior managers at CIA. > > The office directors in turn talked within their offices. They’ll have several divisions. That office director from the Counterproliferation Center talks to the division director for the Counterproliferation Division, who, in turn, later sends an e-mail, the deputy of that office, to Valerie saying, “Could your husband do this? Is he available?” > > She wrote the memo back. Unfortunately, what the Senate Intelligence Committee only reports is the memo that she sent back. Nobody had the decency and honesty to ask the natural question: Who asked her to write the memo? Because she didn’t just generate it on her own. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/49 "2005-08-06T22:48:09Z")
former CIA officer Jim Marcinkowski, who has worked at the FBI, the U.S. Navy, County Prosecutors’ offices, and the CIA (1985-89). > [@](#): > > The exposure of Valerie Plame by anyone in the White House is the same as a local police chief announcing to the media the identity of his undercover officers. It’s that simple; everybody gets that. In both cases, the ability of the officer to operate is destroyed. > > But there is also an added dimension. An informant in a major sophisticated crime network, or a CIA asset working in a foreign government, if exposed they have a rather good chance of losing more than just their ability to operate. Any undercover officer, whether in the police department or the CIA, will tell you the major concern of their informant or their agent is their personal protection and that of their family. Cover is safety. > > If you cannot guarantee it in some form or other, the other person is not going to work for you; it’s as simple as that. And you will lose that source of information. > > So the real issue before the Congress and the country today is not the partisan politics, not even the loss of secrets. The secrets of Valerie Plame’s cover are long gone. What has suffered irreversible damage is the credibility of our case officers when they try to convince an overseas contact that their safety is of primary importance to us. > > If you cannot guarantee that safety, you will not have that person working for you, because if they are exposed, they will in many cases die. > > How are case officers supposed to build and maintain that confidence when their own government cannot even guarantee the personal protection and security of the home team? That’s what this is about. > > The loss of secrecy in the world of espionage occur from time to time, and they may be damaging. The stealing of credibility of the CIA officers, however, is simply unforgivable… ---
**Author:** ![lindacohen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a698b9/32.png) [@lindacohen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindacohen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/50 "2005-08-06T22:52:20Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > [http://www.larouchepub.com/other/govt\_docs/2005/3231dem\_plame\_hrg.html](http://www.larouchepub.com/other/govt_docs/2005/3231dem_plame_hrg.html) > > … > Col. Patrick Lang (ret.), a decorated veteran of the Defense Intelligence Agency. > > … > > The next speaker was Larry Johnson, a former CIA analyst, who also worked at the U.S. State Department’s Office of Counterterrorism from 1989 to 1993. Sigh, a demo blog is the best you can do? LaRouche??? As Gob would say, “Come on!” ---
**Author:** ![Ava\_Gina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Ava\_Gina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ava_Gina)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/51 "2005-08-06T22:54:16Z")
> [@lindacohen](#): > > Sigh, a demo blog is the best you can do? LaRouche??? As Gob would say, “Come on!” So you are saying the quotes are lies? The quotes were not made up by the blogger or Lyndons people. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/52 "2005-08-06T23:02:31Z")
> [@lindacohen](#): > > Sigh, a demo blog is the best you can do? LaRouche??? As Gob would say, “Come on!” The best you can do is deny it happened? besides shooting the messenger (and I would say I would not mind in this case), the LaRouche rag was the most handy transcription of what is going on in the House Gov. Reform Committee. [http://www.democrats.reform.house.gov/story.asp?ID=898](http://www.democrats.reform.house.gov/story.asp?ID=898) And do notice that indeed they are referring to an ongoing investigation. ---
**Author:** ![lindacohen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a698b9/32.png) [@lindacohen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindacohen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/53 "2005-08-06T23:04:04Z")
> [@Ava Gina](#): > > So you are saying the quotes are lies? The quotes were not made up by the blogger or Lyndons people. I’m saying I don’t think the club has been paid back by Air America, nor will it be, if at all, for two years according to [cite](http://www.nysun.com/article/18148) . ---
**Author:** ![lindacohen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a698b9/32.png) [@lindacohen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindacohen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/54 "2005-08-06T23:05:13Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The best you can do is deny it happened? besides shooting the messenger (and I would say I would not mind in this case), the LaRouche rag was the most handy transcription of what is going on in the House Gov. Reform Committee. > > [http://www.democrats.reform.house.gov/story.asp?ID=898](http://www.democrats.reform.house.gov/story.asp?ID=898) > > And do notice that indeed they are referring to an ongoing investigation. Hehe, I think Waxman once claimed McCain had never had a real job. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/55 "2005-08-06T23:22:52Z")
> [@lindacohen](#): > > I’m saying I don’t think the club has been paid back by Air America, nor will it be, if at all, for two years according to [cite](http://www.nysun.com/article/18148) . They are not dumping any responsibility even when they could, and still they are going to pay! This will be an scandal for Air America does not pay the loan. And once again from your cite: > [@](#): > > Gloria Wise is under investigation by the city’s Department of Investigation for matters that include transferring $875,000 to Progress Media, former parent company of the Air America radio network, and to the club’s director of development, Evan Montvel Cohen, who headed Progress Media. Air America is not being investigated. But the Bush administration is: [http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20050731-18110700-bc-us-leak.xml](http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20050731-18110700-bc-us-leak.xml) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON, July 31 (UPI) – White House staffers may have known Joseph Wilson was married to a CIA operative weeks before Wilson publicly criticized Iraq war policy. > > Related Headlines > Report: CIA name leak probe expands (July 27, 2005) – The investigation into whether a federal official leaked the name of a CIA operative is wider than originally believed, the Washington Post … \> full story > > White House rapped for Plame leak (July 22, 2005) – A former CIA official says it is wrong and shameful for the White House to protect aides involved in revealing a CIA operative’s name. The … \> full story > > Plame’s name listed in classified memo (July 21, 2005) – The identity of a CIA operative, whose name was leaked to news media, was included in a classified U.S. State Department memo before the leak was … \> full story > > Reporter describes grand jury testimony (July 17, 2005) – Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper says Vice President Dick Cheney’s top White House aide was a source for his 2003 story identifying a CIA … \> full story > > Report: Rove was Cooper’s ‘secret source’ (July 10, 2005) – Deputy White House Chief of Staff Karl Rove was Time magazine correspondent Matt Cooper’s secret source, Newsweek reported. Rove’s lawyer … \> full story > > … > > Time magazine reports a June 2003 internal State Department memo mentioned that Wilson was married to CIA agent Valerie Plame. The memo was read by then-Secretary of State Colin Powell and possibly by Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, the magazine reported. > > Time said that prospect increases the chances that White House adviser Karl Rove and others learned about Plame from administration sources, rather than from media contacts as Rove has suggested to investigators. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/56 "2005-08-06T23:34:34Z")
> [@lindacohen](#): > > Hehe, I think Waxman once claimed McCain had never had a real job. After a preliminary search I have to say: Cite? It seems Waxman never said that. ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/57 "2005-08-07T00:31:04Z")
I think the only thing missing is the: =D ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/58 "2005-08-07T01:48:10Z")
I should probably let this train wreck die a swift, merciful death, but I have to ask: **Lindacohen** , _what do you want?_ You came here hoping to elicit a screeching “Libtard” defense of Air America. When instead you were met with a dispassionate update of the facts (most of which you were apparently unaware of, even after they were literally shoved under your nose), you’ve changed tack, randomly pushing buttons in the hope that someone will rise to the bait. It ain’t gonna happen. If you have something to say, do us all a favor and just say it. No more “feelers,” no more beating around the bush. Either say your piece or fold your tent; most of the posters here have chunks of people who’ve tried approach lodged in their large intestines. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/59 "2005-08-07T02:52:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Aye, an opposing view is often disagreeable to the digestion, eh mate? What a wit! Linda, thou saucy lass (since apparently we’re in a fucking Sir Walter Scott novel here)… you’re talking out your ass. Please take a look around our little Straight Dope Message Board. Make yourself to home. You’ll find that we **love** opposing views, as long as they’re defended with logic and honesty. There are many things about which reasonable people can differ. We have a full range of political viewpoints, a number of Ph.D.'s, lots of intelligent laypeople, and a few interesting nutjobs. So say whatever you want, but please, for the love of sweet Jesus, do something for us – **have a point**. You still haven’t made one. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847/60 "2005-08-07T03:50:11Z")
Asking for a cite is reasonable. I note that the Giga is quoting **Congressional Testimony** and not the opinion of LaRouche (who is a nutcase) or whomever. Permit me to advance Exhibit C, an open letter signed by 10 former CIA officers, dated 18 July 2005. The letter is worth reading in full but this quote backs my assertion: > [@](#): > > The disclosure of Ms. Plame’s name was a shameful > event in American history and, in our professional judgment, may have > damaged U.S. national security and poses a threat to the ability of U.S. > intelligence gathering using human sources. [http://democrats.senate.gov/dpc/hearings/hearing23/cialetter.pdf](http://democrats.senate.gov/dpc/hearings/hearing23/cialetter.pdf) \* Furthermore, I don’t see what the issue is. Unless you believe that Bob Novak has psychic powers, Plame’s CIA status was leaked. It is unconstested that she worked in the field, although some claim that she has had a desk job for the past 5 years (the writers above have some choice words for this theory as well). News flash: most countries don’t like their employees to talk to spies. It’s pretty obvious that when a CIA agent is outed, that America’s enemies will take note of who spoke to her. For shame. - Yes, this is a democratic site. So what? This is a source document that I’m using. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-air-america-pit/315847.md?page=4)