# No, America does not need RW civility. America needs LW vitriol. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474 "2011-01-21T17:54:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/21 "2011-01-21T19:03:20Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Would not work. > > In order to whip up crowds, and inspire vitriol, you really need to be able to paint issues as black and white. Good vs. Evil. > > I see the majority of the left as being more “centre-left”. These folks tend to take a nuanced view of issues, and would (I think) be difficult to whip up. They would be more prone to say “hold on, lets step back and look at this issue more thoroughly”. They are, I believe, less likely to get really angry about things. It has always been so, and not just in America; nevertheless, a broad far-left-to-center Popular Front always remains a possibility. Look at the coalition the conservatives were able to put together after 1964 – bizcons and paleocons and neocons and theocons and libertarians and white supremacists and John Bircher nutbars, such **strange** bedfellows, all under the same tent, and all marching out of it in formation and roaring. Why can’t the left do something like that? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/22 "2011-01-21T19:13:31Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > The type of confrontational activism you’re asking for just isn’t compatible with nuance, or compromise, or with reasoned consideration of other viewpoints, or really with appreciation of the nonideological aspects of any political issue. So you’d get _different_ close minded attitudes and positions and _different_ egotistical charismatic leaders, but it sure doesn’t sound like an improvement to me, just a worsening of an already bad landscape. > > But hey, don’t put that torch down just because we’re worried about our houses and shit… So? It would still be an improvement if the egotistical charismatic leaders are LW rather than RW – Hugo Chavez sux burro balls, but far, far better Chavez than Uribe or Pinochet or Somoza or Franco. (Or Sarah Palin, for that matter. I don’t care if we have to change the Constitution, or even pick a war with Venezuela and surrender, I’ll accept Chavez as POTUS in preference to Palin.) I’m tempted to add that the vitriol need only apply at the grassroots-and-media-and-electoral stage, and that once elected officials actually sit down to work, **then** it’s time for “nuance, or compromise, or with reasoned consideration of other viewpoints, or really with appreciation of the nonideological aspects of any political issue.” That has worked before many times in American history. But, at **this** stage of American history, the GOP has made it clear enough and often enough that whether they’re in the majority or the minority, “nuance, or compromise, or with reasoned consideration of other viewpoints, or really with appreciation of the nonideological aspects of any political issue” just ain’t gonna fly. So it goes. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/23 "2011-01-21T19:13:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It has always been so, and not just in America; nevertheless, a broad far-left-to-center Popular Front always remains a possibility. I don’t think so. Look at the amount of criticism Obama gets from the left for being “just like Bush.” Look at the criticism of Clinton for being the “best Republican president in history,” or however that gets phrased. > [@](#): > > Look at the coalition the conservatives were able to put together after 1964 – bizcons and paleocons and neocons and theocons and libertarians and white supremacists and John Bircher nutbars, such **strange** bedfellows, all under the same tent, and all marching out of it in formation and roaring. Why can’t the left do something like that? In my view, the big business Republicans only care about taxes. The religious right only cares about social issues. Neocons are only interested in foreign policy. They can agree because they don’t care about what the other cares about. (I’m exaggerating slightly for effect here, but really those groups do a good job of not stepping on each others’ toes.) The left, for better or for worse, seems very interested in social justice – something that covers not only social legislation but also economic matters and foreign policy. I think this is a good thing from a personal view, but it makes politics difficult, because folks left of center (myself included) tend to care about everything, and that makes it hard to compromise in the manner you propose. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/24 "2011-01-21T19:15:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > …I’ll accept Chavez as POTUS in preference to Palin… God, I hope this doesn’t become the DNC’s campaign slogan in 2012. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/25 "2011-01-21T19:21:23Z")
My only comment would be that the Left needs to go BACK to when they USED to have these types of events. I remember Jesse Jackson marching across my campus, the Million Man March, hard core Labor strikes, and other open vocal protest and shouting movements. Guess who the Tea Party learned this from? Go back to your roots - get your people out there showing real support. You used to do it well, what happened? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/26 "2011-01-21T19:26:07Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > My only comment would be that the Left needs to go BACK to when they USED to have these types of events. I remember Jesse Jackson marching across my campus, the Million Man March, hard core Labor strikes, and other open vocal protest and shouting movements. > > Guess who the Tea Party learned this from? > > Go back to your roots - get your people out there showing real support. You used to do it well, what happened? The Boomers aged. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/27 "2011-01-21T19:27:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > God, I hope this doesn’t become the DNC’s campaign slogan in 2012. Good point. We’ll go with “Pick a war with Venezuela and surrender.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/28 "2011-01-21T19:29:47Z")
Some people would rather feel good than actually accomplish something. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/29 "2011-01-21T19:50:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The Boomers aged. Interesting flip of the coin - the boomers aged, and nobody stepped up. At the same time, a generation of right wing kids grew up under Reagan and decided to take the same tactics of the Left of their youth. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/30 "2011-01-21T19:52:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So? It would still be an improvement if the egotistical charismatic leaders are LW rather than RW – Hugo Chavez sux burro balls, but far, far better Chavez than Uribe or Pinochet or Somoza or Franco. (Or Sarah Palin, for that matter. I don’t care if we have to change the Constitution, or even pick a war with Venezuela and surrender, I’ll accept Chavez as POTUS in preference to Palin.) The choice in America is not, currently, between Hugo Chavez or Sarah Palin. However, if we want to force a battle between ideological demagogues or absolutists, yours is certainly a path toward constructing a crucible which could distill such a choice. > [@](#): > > I’m tempted to add that the vitriol need only apply at the grassroots-and-media-and-electoral stage, and that once elected officials actually sit down to work, **then** it’s time for [nuance, compromise, and reasoned consideration]. That has worked before many times in American history. > > But, at **this** stage of American history, the GOP has made it clear enough and often enough that whether they’re in the majority or the minority, [nuance, compromise, and reasoned consideration] just ain’t gonna fly. So it goes. I don’t think American history teaches the lesson you’re suggesting. I think it teaches that vitriol and major activist movements go hand in hand with the breakdown of governmental effectiveness, and that [nuance, compromise, and reasoned consideration] go hand in hand with “elected officials actually [sitting] down to work.” It wasn’t _vitriol_ from the left that brought about the social economic changes of the 30’s, it was compromise and consideration by FDR and the Democrats in Congress in response to the great social demands of the Depression. It wasn’t strident demonstration that effected major civil rights changes in the 60’s, it was images of right wing overreaction combined with peaceful marches and impassioned nonviolent rhetoric from the victims which convinced the majority of Americans change was due. And it wasn’t leftwing radicalism that ended the Vietnam War, it was Walter Cronkite and the “Silent Majority” becoming sickened by its continuation. Let the right wing noise machine destroy itself in its own feedback. Provide a sane background alternative that gives fair hearing to those “biased” viewpoints and believe it or not the chaff will get taken by the wind, and we might produce something _better_ than left wing ideological purity. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/31 "2011-01-21T21:10:04Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Let the right wing noise machine destroy itself in its own feedback. Provide a sane background alternative that gives fair hearing to those “biased” viewpoints and believe it or not the chaff will get taken by the wind, and we might produce something _better_ than left wing ideological purity. I wanted to start a thread concerning a truly insightful blog post that I came across\*, [Endogenize ideology](http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/1049.html), which I interpret as tangential to your point. Short version: not gonna happen, because having an ideological “noise-machine” is a winning strategy (from both real-world and game-theory perspectives). Snipping mercilessly for a slightly longer version: > [@](#): > > …we treat the ideological environment as exogenous and try to characterize the space of feasible policy options. We then choose the best available. > … > Rather than two optimizers one of which has strictly less information than the other, in the real world we’ve seen two satisficers, one of which has adopted the strategy of optimizing subject to fixed constraints and the other of which has neglected pursuit of optimal present policy in favor of action intended to reshape the constraint set. > … > Ideology is malleable, over years and decades rather than generations and centuries. If you have to choose one — smart policy and indifference to ideology or sloppy policy and careful ideological work — you are better off choosing the latter. I’m still pondering and processing what he says; really, it’s worth reading, particularly for those who are economics-oriented. But I see too much truth in the footnote, which supports (my reading of) **BrainGlutton** ’s thesis: > [@](#): > > …For all the manifest failures of the Bush Administration, look at where the United States is today, politically and ideologically, compared to where it was ten years ago and ask yourself whether Karl Rove was wrong. Self-styled members of the “reality-based community” have very little to crow about. They studied — “judiciously”, even — while their America, my America disappeared beneath our feet… \*Thanks to Doper **Hellestal** for bringing this blog to my attention. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/32 "2011-01-21T21:18:20Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Interesting flip of the coin - the boomers aged, and nobody stepped up. At the same time, a generation of right wing kids grew up under Reagan and decided to take the same tactics of the Left of their youth. Well, soon the Boomers will reach retirement age and have a lot of time on their hands . . . maybe then things will heat up again. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/33 "2011-01-21T21:57:07Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > I wanted to start a thread concerning a truly insightful blog post that I came across\*, [Endogenize ideology](http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/1049.html)… I think the essayist is just pointing out that perceptions don’t actually follow reality, and that arguments from morality are more persuasive than arguments from optimized outcome. (This may be rather more obvious to those of us unencumbered by too much familiarity with economic theory.) He then immediately undercuts that valid point with the observation and assertion that ideologies can be changed as consequences of policy decisions. I agree with that, and with his example of using deliberately corrupt and incompetent public officials to reinforce the ideological belief that government is incompetent and corrupt. But I don’t think the lesson here is “fight blind ideology with blind ideology”, but rather to combine outcome based pragmatism with unabashed ideological movement and passionate salesmanship of the moral bases for that ideology. The money quote is here: > [@Steve Randy Waldman](#): > > I think in practice we’ve had (since the late 1970s) two political groups in the United States that have pursued one strategy to the exclusion of the other, so it feels natural to imagine we have to choose either ideology or technocracy. We don’t. We want smart technocrats, but we want technocrats who treat ideology as endogenous, who assign a very high value to the dynamism of moral ideas and political constraints when considering alternatives. > > Further, we want critical ideologues. Shifting the polity towards an _idée fixe_, some ideology chosen _a priori_ from first principles, or from reading the Bible, Mises, or Marx, is likely to be unwise. We ought to do our best to explore the full space of potentially achievable ideologies and consider which are likely to promote good outcomes, especially given the “trembling hand” of policymakers. So I believe the essayist is echoing my appeal towards a politics which gives fair hearing to all -even biased- viewpoints and works towards best results. His point is that this will drive ideological change in favor of ‘the reality based community’. My point is that this will produce a better and stronger nation. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/34 "2011-01-21T22:00:29Z")
One problem with the tea baggers besides their ignorance is their bug-like rate of procreation. We really just can’t keep up. I think we just have to concede, vote with our feet and truly embrace Red State/Blue State America. They may use states rights to force Muslims in Alabama to pledge allegiance to President Jesus, but when they come up to the civilized world to fix our Volvos, we’ll make their kids read about evolution and get their dreadful teeth fixed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/35 "2011-01-21T22:14:08Z")
But are we ready to lower ourselves like that, abandon polite civility, simply to wrest our country from their greasy, porcine grip? Oh, hell, yes! ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/36 "2011-01-21T22:17:28Z")
Liberals are smarter than conservatives, and a strategy of using simplistic slogans and moronic lies to appeal to our emotions simply won’t work as well as they do on conservatives. Sadly, our intelligence hinders our resolve ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/37 "2011-01-21T22:20:02Z")
Such a heavy burden to bear… Actually, libertarians trump you all in terms of intelligence. It’s such an obscure political philosophy that you have to read your ass off just to find out about it! ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/38 "2011-01-21T22:40:48Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > One problem with the tea baggers besides their ignorance is their bug-like rate of procreation. We really just can’t keep up. I think we just have to concede, vote with our feet and truly embrace Red State/Blue State America. They may use states rights to force Muslims in Alabama to pledge allegiance to President Jesus, but when they come up to the civilized world to fix our Volvos, we’ll make their kids read about evolution and get their dreadful teeth fixed. Actually, it seems as though most of the tea baggers are past the age of procreation so I have doubts about whether than scenario is probable. And while it may be tempting on a visceral level for liberals to also play Red State/Blue State, we should keep it mind it’s the Republicans’ game with the Republicans’ rules played (mostly) on the Republicans’ home field. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/39 "2011-01-21T22:42:57Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Liberals are smarter than conservatives, and a strategy of using simplistic slogans and moronic lies to appeal to our emotions simply won’t work as well as they do on conservatives. Sadly, our intelligence hinders our resolve Couldn’t agree less about comparitive intelligence. Appeals to emotion don’t need simplistic slogans but they do require easily communicated moral analogues. That’s why slogans are more persuasive than essays, but that has nothing to do with the intelligence of the target audience and everything to do with the emphasis on which aspect is being communicated. Slogans distill a basic moral outlook into a simple statement, leaving any development of implications or methodologies out of the picture. More nuanced discussions tend to concentrate on assumptions and methodologies and possible outcomes, and conservatives have no more trouble following these discussions than do liberals; however, these consequence-heavy debates fail to satisfy the need for a moral frame of reference required by all humans, regardless of political affiliation. IMO, conservatives are more naturally adept at describing policy preferences in terms of their moral foundation, and thus can be more persuasive on a broad level. Liberals are more naturally inclined to test their policy preferences against their moral foundation, and thus are more effective at producing policy reflective of the desired outcome. ETA for **John Mace** - Libertarians are good for both the left and the right, as they make liberals look persuasive and illuminate the superior policy acumen of conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/40 "2011-01-21T22:50:24Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Actually, it seems as though most of the tea baggers are past the age of procreation so I have doubts about whether than scenario is probable. And while it may be tempting on a visceral level for liberals to also play Red State/Blue State, we should keep it mind it’s the Republicans’ game with the Republicans’ rules played (mostly) on the Republicans’ home field. I agree, but to be honest, they won. They have been able to set the rules my entire lifetime and that includes rebounding after Watergate and the invasion of Iraq. Florida sealed it: essentially a Republican coupe, they transformed American politics. After Florida, the Republicans made it clear that American politics were now a zero sum game and the winners would rig the game so that the losers never really get their hands on power again. At this point, I just want to see how much longer they can loot the nation while distracting the mouth-breathers with guns, gay marriage, and Kenyan Presidents. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474.md?page=3)