# No, America does not need RW civility. America needs LW vitriol. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474 "2011-01-21T17:54:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/61 "2011-01-22T02:31:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It has always been so, and not just in America; nevertheless, a broad far-left-to-center Popular Front always remains a possibility. Look at the coalition the conservatives were able to put together after 1964 – bizcons and paleocons and neocons and theocons and libertarians and white supremacists and John Bircher nutbars, such **strange** bedfellows, all under the same tent, and all marching out of it in formation and roaring. Why can’t the left do something like that? Because Reagan’s 11th commandment took root for the right (“Thou shall not attack another Republican”). The left doesn’t have anything similar. Look at the hatred Lieberman inspires among the Daily Kos type crowd. A politician like him should be exactly who Democrats reach out to, instead the whole Lamont thing was such a clusterfuck that for awhile there was serious concern a former Democrat VP candidate would switch parties. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/62 "2011-01-22T02:38:21Z")
Yet again I don’t understand why people want the Democrats to emulate people like Sharon Angle, Joe Miller, Christine O’Donnell, and Sarah Palin. They’re unpopular losers. Doesn’t it make more sense to emulate those who beat them? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/63 "2011-01-22T02:43:54Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Wikipedia is hardly a reliable source. > > Also, why would I need to read the article when I watched it live on C-SPAN? So, when I quoted the speakers from Wikipedia, that was not correct? Those folks are not left leaning activists? If you’ve got some evidence to support your original post on the matter, let’s see it. Pardon me if I don’t trust your memory and your uncited assertions. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/64 "2011-01-22T02:44:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Such a heavy burden to bear… > > Actually, libertarians trump you all in terms of intelligence. It’s such an obscure political philosophy that you have to read your ass off just to find out about it! And better yet, once you find a proponent they can never be pinned to any actual real life application of it. ‘It’s a philosophy, not a political party mannnnn.’ It’s like Libertarians are simply proposing ‘goodness’. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/65 "2011-01-22T02:49:51Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I should have been the kind of person the Dems would desperately try to recruit, . . . Every political post I have read by you on the SDMB indicates that this is not true. You have not given any indication of supporting any Democratic positions. The only way the Democratic Party would desperately try to recruit you would be if we turned into Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/66 "2011-01-22T03:12:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, when I quoted the speakers from Wikipedia, that was not correct? Those folks are not left leaning activists? > > If you’ve got some evidence to support your original post on the matter, let’s see it. Pardon me if I don’t trust your memory and your uncited assertions. Dude, are you seriously trying to assert that a march organized by Louis Farrakhan, where he specifically told white liberals they weren’t welcome, while imploring black conservatives to attend and tried to get Colin Powell to be one of the speakers was a left-wing protest? Please tell me since you’re such an expert on this march having read a wikipedia article on it(wow what a reliable source) what left-wing messages did Farrakhan set forth in his ending speech which clocked at around three-and-a-half hours? If you can’t name any with the key speech by the march’s organizer, I’d argue it wasn’t left-wing. Arguing that the Million Man March was a left-wing protest movement is like arguing that Hamas is left-wing because they regularly collaborate with the PFLP. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/67 "2011-01-22T03:13:29Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > The type of confrontational activism you’re asking for just isn’t compatible with nuance, or compromise, or with reasoned consideration of other viewpoints, or really with appreciation of the nonideological aspects of any political issue. So you’d get _different_ close minded attitudes and positions and _different_ egotistical charismatic leaders, but it sure doesn’t sound like an improvement to me, just a worsening of an already bad landscape. > > But hey, don’t put that torch down just because we’re worried about our houses and shit… I’m reminded of the old axiom that democracy cannot defend itself without setting aside its own principles. That you need to exercise ruthless dominance in fighting war, which demands ruthless training in ruthless methods. We may need to make the same moral compromise with…uh…compromise. And nuance and reasoned discourse. Of course war is all about worsening bad landscapes. So we have to carefully consider whether the likely outcome is worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/68 "2011-01-22T03:15:40Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > He’s black, that’s all the Pubbies need to know. What’s a “Pubby”? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/69 "2011-01-22T03:17:09Z")
Whoosh? (Assuming it’s not, ‘pubby’ is a Repugnian, though spelled slightly differently) -XT ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/70 "2011-01-22T03:17:20Z")
Republican ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/71 "2011-01-22T03:21:22Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Republican Ah thanks. Anyway classifying the Nation of Islam or Louis Farrakhan as “left-wing” makes about as much sense as calling Osama Bin Laden a leftist. And no, I’m not comparing the two. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/72 "2011-01-22T03:29:41Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > The whole “lefties are just as bad, or worse” thing falls apart when you remember that the Bush administration manipulated the nation into a war that resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people. Apples and oranges. On the one hand you’re talking about insults and hate directed by a significant number of the populace for the last forty years toward anyone who doesn’t agree with them, and on the other you’re talking about action taken by a president and congress fooled into believing in the existence of WMD by a dictator who set out to accomplish just that. Sorry, but I’m failing to see how the latter absolves the former of its behavior. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/73 "2011-01-22T04:04:34Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > … a president and congress fooled into believing in the existence of WMD by a dictator who set out to accomplish just that. … Does anyone else on God’s green Earth share this interpretation of events, or is this, as I suspect, uniquely yours? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/74 "2011-01-22T04:47:38Z")
Sure, lots of people believe it. Mostly they’re people who don’t have a vested political motive in claiming “Bush lied!” Do I have to remind you yet again that Clinton (both) thought Hussein had WMD; many significant members of Congress thought Hussein had WMD; most of the world’s intelligence agencies thought Hussein had WMD; and Hussein himself explained in one of his jailhouse interviews that he deliberately set about creating the impression he had WMD so as to have greater influence in the region? I realize you think all these people save Hussein were tricked by the evil and extraordinarily-tricky-and-persuasive-given-that-he-was-supposed-to-be-so-stupid George Bush, but people who can view the situation knowledgeably and objectively don’t fall for that fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/75 "2011-01-22T05:30:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Does anyone else on God’s green Earth share this interpretation of events, or is this, as I suspect, uniquely yours? Saddam did try to fool his _regional_ enemies like Iran into thinking he had those weapons, but he did not try to fool the U.S. into thinking that. He tried to convince the West he didn’t have those weapons. That was one of his problems: he wanted the Western countries to think he didn’t have weapons so they wouldn’t overthrow him, but he wanted the Middle Eastern countries to think he might have weapons so they would respect his power. I am not sure anybody could pull off that balancing act, but Saddam was not nearly clever enough to do it. He was a thug. That being said, no, people who thought Iraq had WMDs were not fooled by Saddam. They were misled by their own wrong assumptions, not to mention inadequate intelligence and political concerns. And it goes without saying that this and ‘this is all the rude left’s fault’ both have almost nothing to do with the topic. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/76 "2011-01-22T05:31:29Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Every political post I have read by you on the SDMB indicates that this is not true. You have not given any indication of supporting any Democratic positions. The only way the Democratic Party would desperately try to recruit you would be if we turned into Republicans. Incorrect on a lot of levels, but more to the point, the left lost me about the time I grew a brain. I thought it might have had a point when I was young and immature. I have vaguely nice feelings about them. Then I grew up and before I left school I pretty much formed my opinion. Since I didn’t start posting until that had happened, the left was a bit late. And yet a knew many lefty people (it was rather chic) and could easily have gone that way. And I still hold some opinions which are uncommon on the Right, if anyone cared to ask me. It’s also the level of vitriol. I can have an argument with people whop disagree with me on the right. Fine. But I have never faced the personal venom reserved for my by leftists on this very board and in person. I return the hate with disdain. > [@Ibn Warraq](#): > > Anyway classifying the Nation of Islam or Louis Farrakhan as “left-wing” makes about as much sense as calling Osama Bin Laden a leftist. I know the left hates racism when it’s not being done by them, and I know that you like to pretend that the left was never racist (it was, and was the worst), and I know all the lefties like to arbitrarily and retroactively declare people as non-leftists, but Farrakan was beloved by the elft. He would appear on short lists of important leftist leaders. He hated and was despitsed in return by the entire right. If it looks like duck, etc. Same with a lot of people you wouldn’t like. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/77 "2011-01-22T05:50:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Dude, are you seriously trying to assert that a march organized by Louis Farrakhan, where he specifically told white liberals they weren’t welcome, while imploring black conservatives to attend and tried to get Colin Powell to be one of the speakers was a left-wing protest? > > Please tell me since you’re such an expert on this march having read a wikipedia article on it(wow what a reliable source) what left-wing messages did Farrakhan set forth in his ending speech which clocked at around three-and-a-half hours? > > If you can’t name any with the key speech by the march’s organizer, I’d argue it wasn’t left-wing. > > Arguing that the Million Man March was a left-wing protest movement is like arguing that Hamas is left-wing because they regularly collaborate with the PFLP. So, you have no cites for your assertions. You’re just blathering. And I don’t know if Colin Powell was invited, but what does that matter since he didn’t attend and Cornel West did? I don’t care who organized the event. All I care about is who attended. Among them, the now famous Rev Wright. That’s regular right-wing love fest! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/78 "2011-01-22T06:27:11Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > …But I have never faced the personal venom reserved for my by leftists on this very board and in person. I return the hate with disdain… Aw, gee. Look, you need a minute? Hanky? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/79 "2011-01-22T06:30:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Saddam did try to fool his _regional_ enemies like Iran into thinking he had those weapons, but he did not try to fool the U.S. into thinking that. He tried to convince the West he didn’t have those weapons. That was one of his problems: he wanted the Western countries to think he didn’t have weapons so they wouldn’t overthrow him, but he wanted the Middle Eastern countries to think he might have weapons so they would respect his power. Unfortunately for Hussein, both his past use of WMD and his attempts at convincing his neighbors that he had WMD also persuaded most of the rest of the world that he had actually did have them and was lying about it when he denied it to the West. > [@Marley23](#): > > And it goes without saying that this and ‘this is all the rude left’s fault’ both have almost nothing to do with the topic. Actually, “it’s all the rude left’s fault” is the part of the discussion that is on topic. And the problem goes far beyond mere rudeness. When a person can’t bring up the ways life was better prior to the counter culture revolution without being reviled as a racist, and when people can’t have moral objections to income redistribution and/or putting the government in charge of our health care without being reviled as selfish, evil morons who _want_ to see people starving and dying in the streets, it goes far beyond rudeness and becomes hate. And that hate, which has been coming from the left for decades, is creating a right-wing backlash. And when you combine old school leftie hate with rebound rightie hate, you get the kind of political climate that exists today where each side hates the other side. So you’d think that people would begin to see that all this hate speech is doing nothing but causing problems and creating a more dangerous situation for everyone. But not good old **BrainGlutton**! No, siree! In his mind what the situation calls for is even more of the same old left-wing, in-your-face hatred that has brought all this about in the first place. And that, my friend, is very much _on_ topic. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474/80 "2011-01-22T06:42:08Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > But I have never faced the personal venom reserved for my by leftists on this very board and in person. I return the hate with disdain. I was watching an episode of A&E’s old Nero Wolfe shows last night and one of the characters, when asked about why he hated another one of the characters in that episode, replied, _“I don’t know. She says she hates men. So, I hate her, just to even it up.”_ 😃 And so it goes. Hate begets hate, even when there’s no other motive for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-america-does-not-need-rw-civility-america-needs-lw-vitriol/568474.md?page=5)