# No CLASS Obama! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769 "2011-10-15T23:32:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/61 "2011-10-16T18:35:39Z")
Actually, your story is similar to what I speculated – somebody else drew a conclusion for him, he took a moment from what he was doing to echo it, and now you’re framing the discussion in this self-serving way that “even a fifth grader” can get this." There are five year olds holding up signs at Occupy Wall Street, clearly penned by their parents, and it would be as honest to say, “even this kindergartener can get this.” It would have been more honest and way less irritating to leave the kid out of it. I have no problem with your OP – I agree with both the premise and the conclusion – I just found it self-serving and condescending to frame it the way you did. And I doubt my kid will ever mow your kid’s lawn. He’ll be too busy mowing mine. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/62 "2011-10-16T20:03:14Z")
“Son, your Mom tells me you were misbehaving today…” “Hearsay. Inadmissable.” “Your Mom wouldn’t tell me so if it weren’t true, son, she’s your Mom.” “Appeal to authority.” “She says you took some cookies, and look! you still have them in your pocket!” “Not dispositive.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/63 "2011-10-16T20:58:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > _SIGH_ > > Congress should not have passed the CLASS Act. Discuss. > > Or: > > Resolved: Congress should not have passed the CLASS Act. An effort that would \*not \*loudly ring the bad-faith bell (something that, as you must know, and should know painfully, is a chronic problem), might have included “A better way to accomplish its ends would have been (fill in the blank, and it’s about damn time the anti’s _did_)”, or, perhaps, “There should not have been an attempt to meet the goals of this act, because it would be better to (fill in the blank, similarly) instead.” Can you offer anything along those lines, or is this \*really \*just what it appears? ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/64 "2011-10-16T21:30:56Z")
The insurance expense spiral exists whether or not Obama is president and whether or not CLASS is what we’re talking about. Like with death panels and so many other anti-Obamacare talking points, the spiral isn’t a problem with Obamacare, it’s an issue with any health insurance plan. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/65 "2011-10-16T22:03:31Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > Actually, your story is similar to what I speculated – somebody else drew a conclusion for him, he took a moment from what he was doing to echo it, and now you’re framing the discussion in this self-serving way that “even a fifth grader” can get this." I don’t know why you struggle with the possibility that the flaw in the plan was so apparent that he couldn’t independently grasp it. He was paying more attention to the CNN story than I was, but I did not hear the CNN story draw any conclusions for him. At best, it reported on the conclusion that the White House reached. Why do you assume his response was wedded to whatever someone told him? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/66 "2011-10-16T22:08:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They cost me money too, and all the other people who bought insurance. We were told it would create a savings. It did not. > > It’s easy to spend other people’s money. It’s even easier to pass that obligation on to generation after generation. Maybe the 5th graders don’t want your share of the debt. Ever think of that? You’re certainly not going to pay for it. The CLASS part of the bill was bogus math from day one. It was not a guaranteed revenue stream and as such was the devil in the detail. > > And here we are, 3 years of hope and change later. This is what you get when people rush through legislation before really hashing it out. When you consider how much money is represented in the legislation, how far in debt we already are, and how integrated the policy links us to the government, it represents the single most important piece of legislation in the history of the country. The price of healthcare is wrapped into products we make. You are paying all the damn time. There is no escaping, but you can fool yourself that you are not paying if you wish to. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/67 "2011-10-16T22:29:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t know why you struggle with the possibility that the flaw in the plan was so apparent that he couldn’t independently grasp it. > > He was paying more attention to the CNN story than I was, but I did not hear the CNN story draw any conclusions for him. At best, it reported on the conclusion that the White House reached. > > Why do you assume his response was wedded to whatever someone told him? Since you confirmed that it was (he simply agreed with some talking head on TV), it doesn’t matter why I assumed it. I assumed it because he’s a fifth grader. Fifth graders, however brilliant we think they are, are not inclined to grasp classic assessment spirals or to read insurance policy in the first place. You’ve basically prevented any serious discussion with this self-serving and somewhat deluded framing as “a fifth grader gets it!” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/68 "2011-10-16T23:19:54Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > Since you confirmed that it was (he simply agreed with some talking head on TV), it doesn’t matter why I assumed it. I assumed it because he’s a fifth grader. Fifth graders, however brilliant we think they are, are not inclined to grasp classic assessment spirals or to read insurance policy in the first place. You’ve basically prevented any serious discussion with this self-serving and somewhat deluded framing as “a fifth grader gets it!” It was not “some talking head,” but a factual report of the fact that the administration had conceded those flaws exist. And since this flaw is precisely the one documented in the grasshopper and ant fable, it is unclear to me what additional analysis he was incapable of performing. The program could not provide benefits unless everyone chose to contribute. It it that simple. My kid is, in fact, brilliant. This is documented by test and IQ scores. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/69 "2011-10-16T23:25:04Z")
Yeah, well, that’s more of an MPSIMS kind of topic, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/70 "2011-10-16T23:29:28Z")
Also, the kid knows that his dad is completely anti-Obama and of course, would want to curry favor. So why not make your own arguments as to the details and merits of what happened, for those of us less brainy than your fifth grader, who have difficulty passing judgement on a complex piece of legislation after hearing a five second soundbite? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/71 "2011-10-16T23:30:04Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > Since you confirmed that it was (he simply agreed with some talking head on TV), it doesn’t matter why I assumed it. I assumed it because he’s a fifth grader. Fifth graders, however brilliant we think they are, are not inclined to grasp classic assessment spirals or to read insurance policy in the first place. You’ve basically prevented any serious discussion with this self-serving and somewhat deluded framing as “a fifth grader gets it!” A 5th grader who watches and listens to the news would have known that 3 years ago this was rushed through the legislative process without a proper vetting process. And here we are 3 years later watching the vetting process. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/72 "2011-10-16T23:30:43Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > Yeah, well, that’s more of an MPSIMS kind of topic, isn’t it? Witnessing. Solid GD material. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/73 "2011-10-16T23:34:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > A 5th grader who watches and listens to the news would have known that 3 years ago this was rushed through the legislative process without a proper vetting process. > > And here we are 3 years later watching the vetting process. Duh. Three years ago, he wasn’t much for TV news. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/74 "2011-10-16T23:34:36Z")
:eek: > [@Magiver](#): > > A 5th grader who watches and listens to the news would have known that 3 years ago this was rushed through the legislative process without a proper vetting process. > > And here we are 3 years later watching the vetting process. Duh. My one year old saw it four years ago. He’s smarter than any of you. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/75 "2011-10-16T23:38:01Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Also, the kid knows that his dad is completely anti-Obama and of course, would want to curry favor. > > So why not make your own arguments as to the details and merits of what happened, for those of us less brainy than your fifth grader, who have difficulty passing judgement on a complex piece of legislation after hearing a five second soundbite? An appealing theory, but in fact he also believes we SHOULD pay for everyone’s health care from taxes because it is Jesus’ command (what you do for the least of my brothers) and is a corporal work of mercy (feed the hungry, care for the sick). I have explained to him why I feel that is unworkable and unwise but he does not agree with his mother or me on that point. If he were currying favor, I don’t think he would take that position. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/76 "2011-10-16T23:43:04Z")
My one year old has run the numbers and decided there is no God. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/77 "2011-10-17T00:04:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My kid is, in fact, brilliant. This is documented by test and IQ scores. Well, why didn’t you say so! That changes everything. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/78 "2011-10-17T00:16:59Z")
I’ll drop out now. I’ve made my point several times and I don’t see it going anywhere good from here. I’m glad your son is engaged by the issues, Bricker. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/79 "2011-10-17T00:49:56Z")
I’m not overwhelmingly impressed by **Bricker** ’s son noticing that CLASS, as passed, is insupportable. That fact is actually something even a fifth-grader can grasp. > [@Bricker](#): > > An appealing theory, but in fact he also believes we SHOULD pay for everyone’s health care from taxes because it is Jesus’ command (what you do for the least of my brothers) and is a corporal work of mercy (feed the hungry, care for the sick). This, on the other hand, _does_ impress me. Go, kid! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/80 "2011-10-17T01:38:08Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > This, on the other hand, _does_ impress me. Go, kid! 🆒 humph My rebuttal to him has been that we can’t pick and choose which of God’s laws to follow and we’re supposed to be a secular country. And his is: we’re not. If other people don’t follow God’s law that shouldn’t stop us. This is where our discussion rests. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769.md?page=5)