# No CLASS Obama! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769 "2011-10-15T23:32:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/81 "2011-10-17T01:40:53Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I’m not overwhelmingly impressed by **Bricker** ’s son noticing that CLASS, as passed, is insupportable. That fact is actually something even a fifth-grader can grasp. > > This, on the other hand, _does_ impress me. Go, kid! 🆒 Before he’s paid a nickle toward the bill he still owes all the debt we’ve given his generation. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/82 "2011-10-17T01:54:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Before he’s paid a nickle toward the bill he still owes all the debt we’ve given his generation. So you are regretting all the tax cuts of the last 30 years? That is the difference between liberals and conservatives. Liberals are not shy about spending, but they try to pay for it with tax increases. Conservatives spend just as much, but then cut taxes, increasing the deficit. So while you are weeping crocodile tears over the debt your grandchildren will inherit, in your heart, you know the blame lies squarely on the spend and borrow profligacy of Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/83 "2011-10-17T01:59:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So you are regretting all the tax cuts of the last 30 years? > > That is the difference between liberals and conservatives. Liberals are not shy about spending, but they try to pay for it with tax increases. Conservatives spend just as much, but then cut taxes, increasing the deficit. > > So while you are weeping crocodile tears over the debt your grandchildren will inherit, in your heart, you know the blame lies squarely on the spend and borrow profligacy of Republicans. Liberals don not try to pay with tax increases. That’s a 15 trillion dollar lie. Conservatives understand what a budget is, Liberals do not. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/84 "2011-10-17T02:02:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Liberals don not try to pay with tax increases. That’s a 15 trillion dollar lie. So the “tax and spend” epithet the right wing tries to lay on liberals is bullshit? > [@](#): > > Conservatives understand what a budget is, Liberals do not. In the last 50 years, who has had larger deficits, Democrats or Republicans? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/85 "2011-10-17T02:04:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My rebuttal to him has been that we can’t pick and choose which of God’s laws to follow and we’re supposed to be a secular country. Oh, **Bricker** , I can’t believe that you, of all people, even given your JPII Catholicism, are telling your kid that his religious beliefs should have no affect on his political actions. I know it’s difficult for many to believe, but Christians were _the_ driving force for the ending of slavery, and have presented a stong opposition to the death penalty, and have been supporters of benefits for the elderly, disabled, and sick. Mind you, Christians have also opposed all those. Which set is following God’s laws? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/86 "2011-10-17T02:08:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Conservatives understand what a budget is, Liberals do not. Evidence of the last 30 years suggests that this statement is not true. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/87 "2011-10-17T02:11:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Liberals don not try to pay with tax increases. That’s a 15 trillion dollar lie. Conservatives understand what a budget is, Liberals do not. As evidenced by Reagan and Bush deficits. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/88 "2011-10-17T02:19:50Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Oh, **Bricker** , I can’t believe that you, of all people, even given your JPII Catholicism, are telling your kid that his religious beliefs should have no affect on his political actions. Not quite. I’m telling him that Jesus’ teachings come as a set; and in my opinion we cannot implement only some. His response is, “Why not?” Which makes me wish I had taught him to just accept what I say instead of praising him when he disagreed and could articulate why. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/89 "2011-10-17T02:23:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Which makes me wish I had taught him to just accept what I say instead of praising him when he disagreed and could articulate why. 😛 My dad, after lo, these many years, still says he regrets ever teaching me to think for myself. 😃 I _think_ he’s kidding. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/90 "2011-10-17T02:34:16Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So the “tax and spend” epithet the right wing tries to lay on liberals is bullshit? It should be “spend and spend”. It would be lovely if we could afford to give everybody everything but then reality kicks in. The last “stimulus” bill involved a nationwide distribution of debt that leaves us without a way to pay for it. my community got stuff like hybrid buses that we couldn’t afford to buy. Is your community paying for it? It’s a serious question. If everybody gets an expensive handout who is going to pay for it? Do you really think the 1 % is going to write a check to cover all the spending? I’d like to see the math behind a 15 trillion dollar debt being paid for by a relative handful of people. We have politicians (like Kerry and Rangel) who duck the very taxes they demand everybody else pay. Kerry’s wealthy wife pays much less than the average citizen. If you want to lecture someone lecture the people making the laws. There’s a reason why Obama and 2 Democratic houses didn’t raise taxes when he was elected. We’re in a recession. So what’s changed in 3 years that they are now suggesting a tax hike for the rich? They lost one of the houses and know that it would never happen so it’s safe to make the bullshit claim as a soundbite. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/91 "2011-10-17T14:59:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Do you really think the 1 % is going to write a check to cover all the spending? I’d like to see the math behind a 15 trillion dollar debt being paid for by a relative handful of people. We have politicians (like Kerry and Rangel) who duck the very taxes they demand everybody else pay. Kerry’s wealthy wife pays much less than the average citizen. If you want to lecture someone lecture the people making the laws. Nice try, but Kerry’s wife pays less in taxes than the average citizen because [the majority of her holdings are federal bonds](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55780-2004Oct22.html). Interest income on federal bonds is tax exempt. She’s not gaming the system, she’s helping to keep it solvent. Anyway, the fact is, Democratic administrations have been less fiscally irresponsible than Republican ones over the last 60 years. No matter how many times you complain about Democrats overspending, you can’t change history. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/92 "2011-10-17T15:20:30Z")
True, you can’t change history, but you can re-write it. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/93 "2011-10-17T17:55:17Z")
First of all, I wish Bricker’s kid had never been brought up in the first place, but once he was, insulting him is just classless. That said, I think there’s an important point that is being totally overlooked here… now I really know nothing about this issue, but assuming what I’ve gleaned from this thread, democrats came up with a complex plan they wanted to implement, but realized that it might not be fiscally sound, so built into it a proviso saying it had to be studied and would only go into effect if it would, in fact, be fiscally sound. In other words, this did something that EVERY DAMN LAW EVERY PASSED SHOULD DO!!! We should be praising CLASS from the rooftops. If only the Bush tax cuts and the invasion of Iraq had come with similar clauses… Kind of puts a lie to the old “Democrats just spend and spend and spend no matter what” chestnut… Furthermore, I think it’s facile to say that the flaw was so simple that a 5th-grader could point it out. Now, again, I’m hardly an expert on the issue (having never even heard of CLASS before this thread), but there are plenty of extraordinarily complicated societal and sociological issues which you can look at, can make a very simple and not-totally-meaningless analogy to some fable or parable or other, and say “see, here’s why it’s going to fail”. Sometimes it will turn out that it will in fact fail. And sometimes it won’t. But very few things that involve topics as complicated as health care are really truly meaningfully analyzable via appeal to Aesop. Or to think about it another way, Democrats who proposed this law in the first place might be wrong headed or incorrect about any number of things, but they’re certainly not utter idiots. And if it took three years of economic analysis by professionals to demonstrate that the plan would in fact not be long-term self-sustaining, then I’m pretty sure that Bricker’s son’s analysis, however, symbolically satisfying Bricker might find it, actually means very close to nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/94 "2011-10-17T19:27:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Liberals don not try to pay with tax increases. That’s a 15 trillion dollar lie. Conservatives understand what a budget is, Liberals do not. This is so demonstrably not true. Bush: “Wal, we got a budget here, and we’re fighting wars, but they’re not ON the budget, so don’t worry about it. And these here tax cuts will generate more revenue so they’ll be … that thing … revenue neutered.” Sad, really, the way ideology can create blinkers. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/95 "2011-10-17T19:37:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > An appealing theory, but in fact he also believes we SHOULD pay for everyone’s health care from taxes because it is Jesus’ command (what you do for the least of my brothers) and is a corporal work of mercy (feed the hungry, care for the sick). I have explained to him why I feel that is unworkable and unwise but he does not agree with his mother or me on that point. > > If he were currying favor, I don’t think he would take that position. Perhaps this churlish brat has the misimpression there is some higher authority than you. Could you tell me some of the other things that weren’t done that you didn’t want done that are outraging you and your son? ---
**Author:** ![Bri2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/48db29/32.png) [@Bri2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bri2k)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/96 "2011-10-17T19:43:52Z")
It’s all well and good to point out something that’s flawed. The true genius is in coming up with a workable solution. Bri2k ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/97 "2011-10-17T20:22:50Z")
It appears that **Bricker Jr.** may actually have personal convictions and be willing to defend them, instead of just yelling “Youse hypocrites!” Any chance of getting the kid in here to flesh out the OP? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/98 "2011-10-17T20:34:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Magiver** : > A 5th grader who watches and listens to the news would have known that 3 years ago this was rushed through the legislative process without a proper vetting process. Yeah, how dare they discuss, plan, and debate a piece of legislation for nearly a year, after it had been the primary focus of the preceding general election, and then pass it with a 60% supermajority! Everyone knows that the proper, responsible way to pass laws is to push for a Constitutional amendment within a week with the credit of the country held hostage. ---
**Author:** ![ricksummon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ricksummon/32/3333_2.png) [@ricksummon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricksummon)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/99 "2011-10-17T20:56:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My rebuttal to him has been that we can’t pick and choose which of God’s laws to follow and we’re supposed to be a secular country. Surely you’re not suggesting that a law is unconstitutional merely because someone favors its passage for religious reasons? It is certainly possible to favor universal healthcare out of a desire for Christian charity while still believing that it serves a secular purpose by improving the health of the citizenry and relieving businesses of the economic burden to provide health insurance to their employees. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/100 "2011-10-17T21:26:02Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > True, you can’t change history, but you can re-write it. she hides her money in tax free municipal bonds. You can’t spin that any other way than she’s avoiding the taxes the middle class has to pay. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769.md?page=6)