# No CLASS Obama! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769 "2011-10-15T23:32:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/121 "2011-10-18T23:25:52Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > That’s not fair. We have to prove the new health care plan is better than their yet to be identified plan. We fall into their trap if we try, because they know by definition anything that you slap Obama’s name on can’t be good. “Fair” is a soundbite word that comes from focus groups. The operative word is “financially viable”. It has to stand on it’s own and not adversely affect the economy. As for problems with the Obama brand that’s all on him. He rode in on a horse called “hope and change” and things got worse. There’s an old saying that Democrats coined that applies: “it’s the economy stupid”. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/122 "2011-10-18T23:34:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > “Fair” is a soundbite word that comes from focus groups. The operative word is “financially viable”. It has to stand on it’s own and not adversely affect the economy. Isn’t this why CLASS had a financial viablility clause in it? Or was that for some other purpose? > [@](#): > > As for problems with the Obama brand that’s all on him. He rode in on a horse called “hope and change” and things got worse. There’s an old saying that Democrats coined that applies: “it’s the economy stupid”. I see, “hope and change” caused things to get worse. I could have sworn it was the gigantic mess the previous administration left. But now that I realize that little catch phrases have such an impact on the economy I’ll start chanting the right ones. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/123 "2011-10-18T23:59:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And perhaps then he can inform us of what would be better legislation to attack the health care problem with than this thing he talkingpointedly calls “Obamacare”. Since, unfortunately, there’s no basis upon which to expect that, I’d be happy to get a responsible response to that from \*anybody \*in his faction. One that is financially viable. This isn’t the first time the CBO was wrong on the same legislation. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/124 "2011-10-19T00:01:46Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I see, “hope and change” caused things to get worse. I could have sworn it was the gigantic mess the previous administration left. But now that I realize that little catch phrases have such an impact on the economy I’ll start chanting the right ones. Congress makes the budget not the President. It was a Democratic Congress that Obama inherited. ---
**Author:** ![Consensus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@Consensus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Consensus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/125 "2011-10-19T00:08:58Z")
Health insurance, just like health care should both be mandatory. It is the only way to go. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/126 "2011-10-19T00:10:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Congress makes the budget not the President. It was a Democratic Congress that Obama inherited. Democratic congress elected after some Republican retard started an expensive war for no good reason. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/127 "2011-10-19T00:13:50Z")
> [@Consensus](#): > > Health insurance, just like health care should both be mandatory. It is the only way to go. So what’s you’re plan for mandatory insurance? ---
**Author:** ![Consensus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@Consensus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Consensus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/128 "2011-10-19T00:17:58Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > So what’s you’re plan for mandatory insurance? Just like income tax. You earn, you pay. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/129 "2011-10-19T00:17:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Congress makes the budget not the President. It was a Democratic Congress that Obama inherited. Don’t worry, I blame them too. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/130 "2011-10-19T00:20:44Z")
> [@Consensus](#): > > Just like income tax. You earn, you pay. I like that. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/131 "2011-10-19T00:27:51Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The entire health insurance industry is falling into that death spiral. Premiums are so high that anyone who doesn’t need insurance goes without it, that causes prices to go up more and as a result more healthy people drop coverage. Since only sick people are left (who hang onto insurance since they need it) the prices go up again. > > The ‘solution’ by the administration is to mandate people buy poorly managed, overpriced, morally bankrupt private insurance plans so those healthy people can’t avoid buying health insurance. > > So I don’t see why this is supposed to be a strike against Obama. This is a strike against our failed health care system that is designed to deny people health care and to make health care as expensive as possible. Good thing that Obama, in his signature issue, decided to drive down the cost curve by implementing tort reform (thereby taking as much as 20% of cost from all the defensive medicine),and by braving the Dem sugar daddies known as the Trial Lawyers Association. And not mandating more coverage, and more generous benefits, for premium payers. Oh wait… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/132 "2011-10-19T00:29:56Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Democratic congress elected after some Republican retard started an expensive war for no good reason. soooooo… The last election reversal of the House was because a bunch of botards didn’t understand their own mantra: “it’s the economy stupid”? It’s strange that Democratic leaders attack the Tea party when it’s the Republican candidate they’re replacing. I guess the writing is on the wall that voters want accountability from their constituents. Maybe you should rethink the idea of supporting bad fiscal legislation out of misplaced party loyalty and look to the future where budgets are adhered to. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/133 "2011-10-19T00:47:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > soooooo… The last election reversal of the House was because a bunch of botards didn’t understand their own mantra: “it’s the economy stupid”? > > It’s strange that Democratic leaders attack the Tea party when it’s the Republican candidate they’re replacing. I guess the writing is on the wall that voters want accountability from their constituents. > > Maybe you should rethink the idea of supporting bad fiscal legislation out of misplaced party loyalty and look to the future where budgets are adhered to. I have no party loyalty. I do have loyalty to the belief that no one should suffer without healthcare. I do have loyalty to the belief UHC is the mark of a civilized country, and better for everyone in the long run. What have the Republicans done to bring about UHC? All I’ve seen those traitorous retards do is: make false claims that lead to a trillion dollar war, try to rationalize torture, preach bigotry against gays and gay marriage, spread religious intolerance, union busting, fight environmental laws. They seem to love a good river fire. fight to remove reproductive rights, oh and try to push the same old broken healthcare system we have now. No UHC, just lots of lies about death panels, in bloody minded stupidity that UHC won’t work despite it working every good damned other place. Democrats may leave a lot to be desired, but they’re not nearly as actively evil. Given my laundry list of complaints I don’t see the teabaggers being any less evil. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/134 "2011-10-19T00:49:13Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Good thing that Obama, in his signature issue, decided to drive down the cost curve by implementing tort reform (thereby taking as much as 20% of cost from all the defensive medicine),.. Bullshit. Tort reform would reduce the cost of medicine, including ‘defensive medicine’, by less than 1%. Cite: [Congressional Budget Office report](http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=4968&type=0#F12), 2004: > [@](#): > > Malpractice costs amounted to an estimated $24 billion in 2002, but that figure represents less than 2 percent of overall health care spending.[(12)](http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=4968&type=0#F12) Thus, even a reduction of 25 percent to 30 percent in malpractice costs would lower health care costs by only about 0.4 percent to 0.5 percent, and the likely effect on health insurance premiums would be comparably small.[(13)](http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=4968&type=0#F13) If you have a cite for your conplete bullshit claim of 20%, bring it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/135 "2011-10-19T01:15:53Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I have no party loyalty. I do have loyalty to the belief that no one should suffer without healthcare. I do have loyalty to the belief UHC is the mark of a civilized country, and better for everyone in the long run. > What have the Republicans done to bring about UHC? > > All I’ve seen those traitorous retards do is: > make false claims that lead to a trillion dollar war, > try to rationalize torture, > preach bigotry against gays and gay marriage, > spread religious intolerance, > union busting, > fight environmental laws. They seem to love a good river fire. > fight to remove reproductive rights, > oh and try to push the same old broken healthcare system we have now. > No UHC, just lots of lies about death panels, in bloody minded stupidity that UHC won’t work despite it working every good damned other place. > Democrats may leave a lot to be desired, but they’re not nearly as actively evil. Given my laundry list of complaints I don’t see the teabaggers being any less evil. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/136 "2011-10-19T01:56:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > :rolleyes: Roll your eyes if you want. It’s the truth. Very demonstratively too. If an American needs healthcare they can’t afford, and charity or family help isn’t available for them what is the tea party platform on what should happen to them? Should they do without: suffering, agonizing, and dying? If the tea party position is yes then they’re savages who have no business giving input to society. If no then how should it be funded? ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/137 "2011-10-19T02:11:45Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Bullshit. Tort reform would reduce the cost of medicine, including ‘defensive medicine’, by less than 1%. Cite: [Congressional Budget Office report](http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=4968&type=0#F12), 2004:If you have a cite for your conplete bullshit claim of 20%, bring it. Read [this](http://www.aaos.org/news/aaosnow/dec10/advocacy2.asp) Then read [this](http://advance.uconn.edu/2009/090223/09022302.htm) Then read [this, from the lefty whackjobs at the HuffPo](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johnny-benjamin/healthcare-reform-and-def_b_243537.html). > [@](#): > > Adding the cost of defending malpractice cases, paying compensation, and covering additional administrative costs (a total of $29.4 billion), the average American family thus pays an additional $2,000 per year in health care just to cover the costs of defensive medicine. With the national health care costs expected to be over $4.5 trillion by 2017, the cost of defensive medicine to the average American could triple in the next 10 years. A little more than 1% (to your credit, a number I did find in one specific cite in a Google search.. not sure which one it was, might have been [wehateAmerica.com](http://wehateAmerica.com)…) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/138 "2011-10-19T10:11:28Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > If an American needs healthcare they can’t afford, and charity or family help isn’t available for them what is the tea party platform on what should happen to them? > > Should they do without: suffering, agonizing, and dying? > > If the tea party position is yes then they’re savages who have no business giving input to society. If no then how should it be funded? [Right here:](http://blog.chron.com/rickperry/2011/09/tea-partiers-cheer-to-let-uninsured-die-ron-paul-says-let-churches-help/) > [@](#): > > When debate moderator Wolf Blitzer brought up a hypothetical young, uninsured American in a coma, he asked, “Are you saying society should just let him die?” and the tea party crowd cheered, some shouting, “Yes!” > [@Magiver](#): > > One that is financially viable. So you are actually in favor of UHC! Great! So then, the reasons you oppose ACA could only be that (1) You aren’t aware that it saves billions overall, and (2) It was passed by the Democrats. Isn’t that pretty much it? Other than the fact that you have nothing whatever to offer that even you are willing to claim is superior to it, nor does anyone else in your party? ---
**Author:** ![BrassyPhrase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea666f/32.png) [@BrassyPhrase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrassyPhrase)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/139 "2011-10-19T11:22:25Z")
Hey, ya’ll. When I first saw this header, I thought of the old Fat Albert cartoon. “You’re like school in the summertime!” “No class” ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769/140 "2011-10-19T11:34:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As you guess, he also rejected the idea that people (or grasshoppers) should be left to rot. But then he said that perhaps the grasshopper should get the worst food and the coldest room in the nest, so he doesn’t rot but doesn’t get all the comforts of the ants’ hard work. So the sick grasshopper is consigned to poor food and no heat so it can get better? Thing is, we all get older. We all turn into grasshoppers. So either we design the system so that only the wealthy get the good care, or we rope in everyone, and then go to the providers and manufacturers with guaranteed orders from the goverment at volume pricing. People just don’t think about this stuff from the top down. They extrapolate from the local to global and as a result don’t factor in economies of scale. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-class-obama/599769.md?page=8)