# No common ground left to stand on? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2019, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639 "2019-11-19T02:58:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/181 "2019-11-27T10:49:25Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > My reasons to enlist did not include aiding fascism. IMHO putting one’s ass on the line for the nation is not fascistic. And I see no need to heed dodgers, cowards, nazis, or traitors. The problem with that post wasn’t you supporting the military. It was the “fuck 'em” attitude to those who were not. You appear to have said that people who never served in the military don’t matter. And how dare they have any complaints. No, it doesn’t seem similar to the ideas of Nazi Germany. But such authoritarianism is often referred to as “fascistic.” That said, I also see a counter argument. I suspect you didn’t mean what others interpreted you to mean. Would you care to clarify why my summary of what you said is incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/182 "2019-11-27T11:00:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Once again, something pretty much any Republican would do. Debatable. Other republicans might downplay climate change and continue to fail to meet the agreed obligations. Whether another would have completely reversed course, pulled out of the paris agreement and even got fully behind coal mining…maybe, I think most wouldn’t. > [@](#): > > I think the evaporation of credibility of the media has a lot to do with this. Other than NPR and CSPAN, the media just ain’t trustworthy anymore. You can no longer trust the media to look at the information and then present it in a digestible format for you. More or less agree, but I don’t think it’s the media’s fault. Comparing the US media to other countries’, the frequency of bad stories and hyperbole looks about the same (that is: infrequent for most news agencies). What looks different to me is 1. a sentiment among the american public that the media is not to be trusted, 2. weakness of interviewers either not asking difficult questions or allowing politicians to deflect too easily, 3. jerry springer style shouting matches on the panel shows and 4. confusing impartiality with “both sides”-ing everything. None of this is new to trump, he’s just leveraged it like never before in many, many ways that I probably don’t need to enumerate. I don’t want to call it genius: he’s just ignorant, but ignorant in a popular way. > [@](#): > > If Vladimir Putin came to the eventual nominee of the Democratic primary and offered proof that Trump cheated during the Republican primary and you knew that this would lead to an overwhelming landslide election in favor of Democrats across the country (affecting redistricting in every state in the union and giving RBG the latitude to take a sick day in peace) would you want the nominee to turn that proof away? No, I would want him/her to follow the law and turn that information over to the various security agencies. If they say the information must be kept secret then I expect him/her to comply. > [@](#): > > It’s how he got elected. That’s why its so important to beat him by the biggest margin possible, even if we don’t get your favorite candidate or my favorite candidate as longa s they can humiliate Trump at the polls. Yes? Of course I agree that if we get as far as the election, I hope it’s fairly conducted and Trump gets absolutely trounced. > [@](#): > > Trump has not yet started a war that has killed 100,000 people. People give him a lot of credit for this, I don’t. “Events, dear boy” are very different now from Bush’s first term and I personally think Trump would be as, or more, reactionary with the timelines swapped. But this is a great debate in itself, and maybe will take us too far afield. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/183 "2019-11-27T12:57:59Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > My reasons to enlist did not include aiding fascism. IMHO putting one’s ass on the line for the nation is not fascistic. And I see no need to heed dodgers, cowards, nazis, or traitors. Again, for clarity, I don’t think joining the military is fascistic. Reflexively dismissing the value or worth of people who haven’t however \*is \*a little bit fashy, to me anyway. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/184 "2019-11-27T23:38:48Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Again, for clarity, I don’t think joining the military is fascistic. Reflexively dismissing the value or worth of people who haven’t however \*is \*a little bit fashy, to me anyway. I am not devaluing their personal worth, merely the worth of their opinions on relevant subjects. I need not heed “patriotic” blather from those who cared too little for their nation to pledge their lives. That doesn’t mean I’ll necessarily agree with veterans nor disagree with non-vets. But I’ll judge their opinions by their stakes in the matter. (I do not blame my BIL who didn’t pass the draft physical. I would disagree with his Fox-fueled politics even if he had earned service decorations. But I’d be less dismissive.) Similarly, I’m not at all moved by bleatings of anti-choice men who’ve adopted nobody. They have no stake outside their fevered imaginations. They can fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/185 "2019-12-01T11:35:52Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Some people drop out of high school, or get homeschooled. They still have to pay for public education, because we, as a society, understand that public education is important and _worth providing to everyone_. If you come at this with “how is it fair to X”… well, you’re coming at the issue exactly backwards, mate. No different situation. I can see the benefit of having every kid educated from k-12 at our local school. But why should I pay for someone who takes 8 years to earn a worthless degree? Now I am ok with providing scholarships to the best and brightest and the poor to go into fields that truly benefit society like medicine or engineering or education as long as it also requires completing their degrees in a reasonable amount of time and keeping a good grade point average. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/186 "2019-12-01T15:10:47Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > No different situation. > > I can see the benefit of having every kid educated from k-12 at our local school. But why should I pay for someone who takes 8 years to earn a worthless degree? > > Now I am ok with providing scholarships to the best and brightest and the poor to go into fields that truly benefit society like medicine or engineering or education as long as it also requires completing their degrees in a reasonable amount of time and keeping a good grade point average. Did you go to college? I ask because it doesn’t seem you’re very familiar with how things work in college with respect to maintaining a required GPA in order to stay in school and progress in your program, regardless of who is paying for your education. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/187 "2019-12-01T15:23:03Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > (I do not blame my BIL who didn’t pass the draft physical. I would disagree with his Fox-fueled politics even if he had earned service decorations. But I’d be less dismissive.) Why? Why would being in good enough shape to be forced to peel potatoes or shoot villagers by your government 50 years ago lend his opinion on matters today more credence? It’s the same opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/188 "2019-12-01T16:05:37Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > The people who hire undocumented immigrants to quietly work for shit pay in shit conditions typically aren’t Bernie bros. No? Well, maybe not Bernie bros (if such a creature actually exists, or existed), but Hillary voters, and likely Warren or Biden voters, yes. Come to where I live. Brownstone Brooklyn. Epicenter of liberalism, at least on the east coast. You’ll find entire neighborhoods where everyone has a full staff of nannies, housekeepers and maintenance people, not to mention all the construction workers keeping all those lovely, century-old brownstones in beautiful shape, and all the back of the house workers in all the lovely, expensive restaurants there. Largely being paid under the table, and largely without a legal authorization to work here. We liberals love undocumented people. We just don’t love them enough to pay them just wages, including overtime, and put them on the books and pay payroll taxes for them and give them access to workers’ comp and unemployment insurance and OSHA and the like. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/189 "2019-12-01T18:22:04Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Did you go to college? I ask because it doesn’t seem you’re very familiar with how things work in college with respect to maintaining a required GPA in order to stay in school and progress in your program, regardless of who is paying for your education. Yes I know that. Not every college had that rule though if you paid the money they sometimes didnt care. Others like mine who had failed to make progress they would send letters requesting them not come back but I dont they actually kicked people out. Sometimes people left and just went to other colleges. I shudder to think if we had a system where a person could basically stay in college forever. Yes scholarships have minimum GPA. Does the Bernie plan have any rules? Now I have heard that in Denmark which has free college that they do have a problem with students staying in the system for too long. Finally the reality is - SOMEONE has to pay. Do you really think they are going to find enough hidden taxes on corporations and rich people to pay the trillions such a program would cost? I dont. It would slip down to higher taxes on everyone. Your going to have a system where a bunch of people are pissed off that others get free college when they either; saved for it, worked their way thru college, or didnt go. Not going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/190 "2019-12-01T19:13:12Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > No different situation. > > I can see the benefit of having every kid educated from k-12 at our local school. But why should I pay for someone who takes 8 years to earn a worthless degree? > > Now I am ok with providing scholarships to the best and brightest and the poor to go into fields that truly benefit society like medicine or engineering or education as long as it also requires completing their degrees in a reasonable amount of time and keeping a good grade point average. The point of this is to help avoid saddling people with crushing debt, not to give you your way. Whether or not you’re okay with it is not the metric by which it should be judged. It’s not about you. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/191 "2019-12-01T20:38:25Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > No? Well, maybe not Bernie bros (if such a creature actually exists, or existed), but Hillary voters, and likely Warren or Biden voters, yes. Why d’you think I specified “Bernie bros” (itself a shorthand for “the \*Actually \*Left”) ? :p. Bougies are gonna _bourgeois_. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/192 "2019-12-01T23:11:20Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Why? Why would being in good enough shape to be forced to peel potatoes or shoot villagers by your government 50 years ago lend his opinion on matters today more credence? It’s the same opinion. Same opinion; vastly different experience and life. I doubt you’ll find any vet who says service didn’t change them more or less profoundly. Veterans have **staked their lives** on the nation, on something beyond their immediate surroundings. Courts demand that a plaintiff have a **stake** in a case. Political discourse should demand no less. Think of it as “paying dues”. Must I heed a non-payer? My BIL did not dodge the draft; he was truly unfit; lousy vision. But he did not experience the discipline, absurdities, cohesion, diversity, imminence of combat, total socialism, and diet of military life. His views weren’t forged on that anvil. He and his equally-squinting identical twin became excellent hi-tech machinists. That’s nice. But they never had a **stake** in national survival. Their opinions drip from safe, comfortable bubbles. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/193 "2019-12-01T23:12:02Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > The point of this is to help avoid saddling people with crushing debt, not to give you your way. Whether or not you’re okay with it is not the metric by which it should be judged. It’s not about you. You can avoid crushing debt by things like going to a cheaper college, saving for college, getting scholarships, working a side job, living at home, and not wasting money on a worthless degree. I freaking did! If your dumb enough to take out $100,000 in loans for a degree in gender studies and theater… too darn bad. Enjoy your debt. Look, democrats can go on and on like you do but I’m telling you, the democrats will lose big time if they keep pushing this. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/194 "2019-12-01T23:53:01Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > You can avoid crushing debt by things like going to a cheaper college, saving for college, getting scholarships, working a side job, living at home, and not wasting money on a worthless degree. > > I freaking did! > > If your dumb enough to take out $100,000 in loans for a degree in gender studies and theater… too darn bad. Enjoy your debt. > > Look, democrats can go on and on like you do but I’m telling you, the democrats will lose big time if they keep pushing this. How many decades ago did you scrimp and save your way to an education? How much more expensive is college now than it was then? When will conservatives stop using hipsters getting gender studies degrees as a strawman to avoid having an actual, honest discussion about the crushing cost of college? ---
**Author:** ![Boycott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boycott/32/6741_2.png) [@Boycott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boycott)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/195 "2019-12-02T00:14:04Z")
I can only see it getting worse. We are living in a reality television environment. it’s now corroded politics. We’re starting to see more and more people elected for whom celebrity culture is something they grew up following and they know the power of going viral. And they know the power of grandstanding. Take these impeachment inquiry hearings. From what transcripts I have read, it seems the behind closed doors questioning by republicans, while trying to shed doubt on the credibility of the case of impeaching the president, was at least treated cordially. Then the doors open for the cameras and you have republicans solely trying to tear down the credibility and integrity of the witnesses. When the cameras are turned on, the president is watching and his base is watching. I fully expect there to be quite a few who do not like Trump at all but they don’t want a hound of angry people on their trail so have to latch onto him for their own future in 2020. Then there’s the general point of Twitter. A website that has reduced our political discourse into 280 characters. Is Twitter representative of real life? No, but it’s an echo chamber of all the people who shape the narrative. 24 hour news cycles are dictated by journalists who spend every hour of their working/waking day on that damn website because it’s such an open web to scour and manufacture controversy. At one of the democratic debates a question was seriously asked about George W Bush and Ellen being pictured together at a football game. It was asked because twitter lost it’s mind over an ex republican President and a lesbian talk show being together forcing Ellen to remind people that you can get along with people you disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/196 "2019-12-02T01:31:13Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > For example, the people who didnt go to college at all. I didn’t go to college… because, at the time, I couldn’t afford it. Now I can afford it, but I don’t have the time or inclination to go. I’ve got my career, and an education wouldn’t help me out at all with it. _But I’m still willing to have my taxes pay for other people’s education, because I know that an educated society is better for everyone._ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/197 "2019-12-02T06:38:38Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > Same opinion; vastly different experience and life. I doubt you’ll find any vet who says service didn’t change them more or less profoundly. Veterans have **staked their lives** on the nation, on something beyond their immediate surroundings. > > Courts demand that a plaintiff have a **stake** in a case. Political discourse should demand no less. Think of it as “paying dues”. Must I heed a non-payer? > > My BIL did not dodge the draft; he was truly unfit; lousy vision. But he did not experience the discipline, absurdities, cohesion, diversity, imminence of combat, total socialism, and diet of military life. His views weren’t forged on that anvil. He and his equally-squinting identical twin became excellent hi-tech machinists. That’s nice. But they never had a **stake** in national survival. Their opinions drip from safe, comfortable bubbles. None of that lends an opinion on, say, putting children in concentration camps or tariffs on Chinese goods any particular weight. Your disregard for people who don’t join the military is interesting, though. I don’t think you’ll find many Americans who will agree with your claim they have no stake in their country’s survival. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/198 "2019-12-02T06:42:47Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > You can avoid crushing debt by things like going to a cheaper college, saving for college, getting scholarships, working a side job, living at home, and not wasting money on a worthless degree. > > I freaking did! As I said, it’s not about you. > [@](#): > > If your dumb enough to take out $100,000 in loans for a degree in gender studies and theater… too darn bad. Enjoy your debt. You seem to be arguing with an imaginary student with an imaginary degree and an imaginary debt. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/199 "2019-12-02T06:43:48Z")
You’d argue against vaccinating kids against Polio on the grounds you had to boil everything in your day, wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/200 "2019-12-02T09:05:11Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > None of that lends an opinion on, say, putting children in concentration camps or tariffs on Chinese goods any particular weight. Where you have experience, I’ll value your views. If not, I won’t force myself to consider your opinions relevant. We may agree, or not. But (metaphor alert!) not being a painter, I would not expect an experienced muralist to value my disagreements over pigments. That’s what I mean by “I don’t _need_ to heed their views”. As for my own opinions: Imprisoning refugees is illegal; interring refugee children is abominable; and raising tariffs (taxes paid by Americans) seems unwise but I’m not economist enough to argue that, so I don’t. > [@](#): > > Your disregard for people who don’t join the military is interesting, though. As I said, I devalue the inexperienced opinion, not the person. But I’ll pay greater heed to the views of not only military vets but all who put their lives at stake for the greater good - police and firefighters, Doctors Without Borders - I hope you get the picture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639.md?page=11)