# No common ground left to stand on? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2019, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639 "2019-11-19T02:58:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/121 "2019-11-22T14:54:20Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Stop right there. You will NOT convince me that the US is full nor will you convince me that we can easily allow in millions more. I’m aware of this – your views on this appear to be akin to religious faith rather than actual interest in the facts. You haven’t responded to any factual argument with any attempt at a refutation. > [@](#): > > Nor will you convince me that us allowing in millions of immigrants will solve the problems back in their home countries like poverty and violence. I haven’t made this argument. It will, however, solve the problem for the individuals who are able to escape that endemic poverty and violence. And most of them would make great Americans. I support a tolerant immigration policy because I want America to be stronger, more prosperous, and more secure, and more immigrants would help achieve this. Your preferred policy would weaken the country and our future, and that’s why I oppose it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/122 "2019-11-22T14:57:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There’s still a fairly broad consensus in areas like the importance of free speech, the inappropriateness of violence against political opponents, that democratic institutions are the best mechanism to govern our nation, and we all hate politicians. Admittedly, I see some erosion in some of these areas, but not so much that I wouldn’t still label them as items of broad, national consensus. I wonder why we can’t also find common ground about clean air and water, UHC, infrastructure, affordable post secondary education. What’s the reason do you suppose that we’re at loggerheads on those issues? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/123 "2019-11-22T15:21:54Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I wonder why we can’t also find common ground about clean air and water, UHC, infrastructure, affordable post secondary education. > > What’s the reason do you suppose that we’re at loggerheads on those issues? Because we agree on the ends, but not on the means. I would like affordable, post-secondary education, for example. That’s a desirable end. I do not agree that making post-secondary education taxpayer-funded is a good way to make it affordable. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/124 "2019-11-22T15:24:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because we agree on the ends, but not on the means. > > I would like affordable, post-secondary education, for example. That’s a desirable end. I do not agree that making post-secondary education taxpayer-funded is a good way to make it affordable. > > Regards, > Shodan I feel like that must be the Reaganite in you. Colleges, you see, are liberal breeding grounds that infect our youth with terrible progressive ideas. Fewer people should go to college. You can get a good job in a trade without a college degree after all. Modern conservatism isn’t very friendly to the idea of affordable college, regardless of how it’s paid for. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/125 "2019-11-22T16:21:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because we agree on the ends, but not on the means. > > I would like affordable, post-secondary education, for example. That’s a desirable end. I do not agree that making post-secondary education taxpayer-funded is a good way to make it affordable. > > Regards, > Shodan Well, how would you go about funding a more affordable post-secondary education system if not through taxpayer-funded revenue? I can think of several ideas that might include more vocational schools with shorter degree programs. After all, not everyone wants to spend 4 years for a Bachelors degree. Still would require funding. Should industry like Google and Amazon be encouraged to provide post-sec training for their future workforce? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/126 "2019-11-22T17:33:52Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Yet you consider Trump, who has encouraged violence against political opponents, to be doing a good job. … Yes, I generally consider Preisdent Trump to be doing a good job. That doesn’t mean I support everything he does or has ever done. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Perhaps that’s the erosion of which he speaks. Let’s see, though. That’s part of it, sure. I see plenty of examples on the Left too (which I suspect many here would be loathe to admit to or acknowledge). And of course, there are examples on the right too (I’ve seen WAY more “free helicopter rides” memes than I’m comfortable with). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/127 "2019-11-22T17:37:18Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Well, how would you go about funding a more affordable post-secondary education system if not through taxpayer-funded revenue? > > I can think of several ideas that might include more vocational schools with shorter degree programs. After all, not everyone wants to spend 4 years for a Bachelors degree. Still would require funding. > > Should industry like Google and Amazon be encouraged to provide post-sec training for their future workforce? I think it’s a fairly common position among conservatives that the explosion in the price of higher education is due, at least in part, to the ready availability of student loans via the federal government, first through guarantees and later through direct loans. You’ve probably heard “Work expands to fill the time available for its completion.” Something similar often happens with costs and the budget available. The federal government has massively increased the “budget available” and we’ve seen a corresponding growth in the cost. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/128 "2019-11-22T17:39:03Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think it’s a fairly common position among conservatives that the explosion in the price of higher education is due, at least in part, to the ready availability of student loans via the federal government, first through guarantees and later through direct loans. > > You’ve probably heard “Work expands to fill the time available for its completion.” Something similar often happens with costs and the budget available. The federal government has massively increased the “budget available” and we’ve seen a corresponding growth in the cost. IE, if the government didn’t help poor people get into college, it would be cheaper for the rich to get in. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/129 "2019-11-22T17:46:24Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > IE, if the government didn’t help poor people get into college, it would be cheaper for the rich to get in. I’m probably more concerned with the effects on the middle class. So far the effects have been to massively inflate the cost of higher education. That’s bad (and, I hope, some of the “common ground” that is the topic here). ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/130 "2019-11-22T17:50:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’s part of it, sure. I see plenty of examples on the Left too (which I suspect many here would be loathe to admit to or acknowledge). Like? > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > And of course, there are examples on the right too (I’ve seen WAY more “free helicopter rides” memes than I’m comfortable with). I consider myself hip to what’s generally trending. But I had no idea what you meant about “free helicopter rides”. So I googled it, strictly for research purposes. You and I spend our time on very different parts of the interwebs. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/131 "2019-11-22T17:52:50Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m probably more concerned with the effects on the middle class. So far the effects have been to massively inflate the cost of higher education. That’s bad (and, I hope, some of the “common ground” that is the topic here). I’m familiar with what dems/progressives are suggesting to address this issue. What are reps/conservatives putting forward? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/132 "2019-11-22T17:56:43Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Like? Here’s a few random examples that come to mind: > [@Barack Obama](#): > > If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun, because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl > [@Barack Obama](#): > > I need you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors. I want you to talk to them whether they are independent or whether they are Republican. I want you to argue with them and get in their face > [@Joe Biden](#): > > And so we have to just change the culture. Period. And keep punching at it and punching at it and punching at it. Leftists attitudes towards violence seem to range from “Fuck yeah, punch those nazis!” to “Scalise was an asshole, but he probably didn’t deserve to be shot”. There was [far more](https://www.theblaze.com/news/antifa-praises-man-who-firebombed-tacoma-ice-facility) [support](https://dailycaller.com/2019/07/14/twitter-willem-van-spronsen-attack/) from leftists for the attack on the Tacoma ICE facility than I anticipated. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > I consider myself hip to what’s generally trending. But I had no idea what you meant about “free helicopter rides”. So I googled it, strictly for research purposes. > You and I spend our time on very different parts of the interwebs. :dubious: Sure, but we both spend time here too. Isn’t the SDMB a bit of “common ground” in at least that sense? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/133 "2019-11-22T18:02:51Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m familiar with what dems/progressives are suggesting to address this issue. What are reps/conservatives putting forward? [Politico (2016) - What the Republican platform says about education](https://www.politico.com/tipsheets/morning-education/2016/07/what-the-republican-platform-says-about-education-215401) > [@](#): > > — On student loans: Republicans called for ending the federal direct student loan program and restoring greater “private sector participation in student financing.” You could also read a bit more about it [here](https://www.republicanviews.org/republican-views-on-education/) and [here](https://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Republican_Party_Education.htm) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/134 "2019-11-22T18:10:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [Politico (2016) - What the Republican platform says about education](https://www.politico.com/tipsheets/morning-education/2016/07/what-the-republican-platform-says-about-education-215401) > > You could also read a bit more about it [here](https://www.republicanviews.org/republican-views-on-education/) and [here](https://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Republican_Party_Education.htm) I don’t think a point by point rebuttal will result in changed minds. But I’m reminded of why we do not share common ground on this issue. Which is not to say that I support every progressive policy and reject every conservative one. But there are far more differences than there is common ground on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/135 "2019-11-22T18:18:21Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I don’t think a point by point rebuttal will result in changed minds. But I’m reminded of why we do not share common ground on this issue. Which is not to say that I support every progressive policy and reject every conservative one. But there are far more differences than there is common ground on this subject. I agree. Like **Shodan** said, there’s a common goal (affordable post-secondary education), but the two parties have essentially diametrically-opposed proposals for how they hope to achieve that. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/136 "2019-11-22T18:22:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sure, but we both spend time here too. Isn’t the SDMB a bit of “common ground” in at least that sense? Feels more like a prison colony. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/137 "2019-11-22T18:23:21Z")
Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/138 "2019-11-22T18:25:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I agree. Like **Shodan** said, there’s a common goal (affordable post-secondary education), but the two parties have essentially diametrically-opposed proposals for how they hope to achieve that. Is there any information on HOW "restoring greater “private sector participation in student financing.” will result in affordable post-secondary education? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/139 "2019-11-22T18:29:15Z")
Rival gangs… Jets v. Sharks… You know, movie/play themes. Your turn to google stuff. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639/140 "2019-11-22T18:30:56Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Is there any information on HOW "restoring greater “private sector participation in student financing.” will result in affordable post-secondary education? Goddamnit, **manson1972**! On a Friday afternoon… :smack: 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-common-ground-left-to-stand-on/843639.md?page=8)