# No costume for you, you are the wrong color, you little racist! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 22, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589 "2016-09-22T17:43:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/201 "2016-09-25T08:04:46Z")
So I’m going to be in Edinburgh next winter, and I thought I’d buy myself a nice wool kilt while I was there. Would I offend anyone if I wore it around the house? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/202 "2016-09-25T10:05:23Z")
Haven’t read the last 100 or so posts, but something that came to my mind this morning: To me, there is a big difference depending on who, why and how are they doing it. An Ukraininan amateur folk-dance troupe coming to my little Spanish town, trying to reproduce our local dances from stills, and getting one of the moves very wrong? Not a problem, the theater laughed but we all understood where the mistake came from, and I understand some of the theater’s workers explained that move after the show was over. I’m sure that the same people would have been able to do it perfectly if they’d had access to video - because they actually cared. They actually tried their best with the means they had available, the “fail” was on the means and not on the intent. A movie studio with more money than God? Someone who when someone points out “uh, actually, that move happened to be all wrong” responds “fuck you, I do it however I want”? No. Just no. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/203 "2016-09-25T11:01:54Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So I’m going to be in Edinburgh next winter, and I thought I’d buy myself a nice wool kilt while I was there. Would I offend anyone if I wore it around the house? Why don’t you use the information given in this thread to figure that out? Cultural appropriation requires that 1. A cultural aspect is used without permission. 2. The culture has stated a desire for you not to use it. Seems it doesn’t qualify on either one. If they are selling something, it clearly isn’t something they don’t expect people to use. And the sale itself is permission. It’s not like these concepts are complicated. The lack of understanding starts to seem willful after a while. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/204 "2016-09-25T11:55:08Z")
How does ‘a culture’ state a desire? Cultures don’t have governments nor spokesmen to speak for them. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/205 "2016-09-25T12:02:39Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I certainly do. > I never told them to change their culture. I never told them they were wrong to consider the symbol sacred. > > I said that I get to use the symbol anyway, sacred or not. That’s called freedom. > > A hell of a lot of people think the American Flag is sacred. But we can still buy underwear with stars and stripes on it. Their idea of sacredness doesn’t stand in the way of my using it in commerce…and neither does yours. You said they “should not find it offensive.” That is you telling them to change their culture. That is you telling them that they are wrong. Are you now taking that back? Yes, everyone has the legal right to be racist. But that’s just the 4chan argument. It’s literally their argument for why think they have a “right” to use the word “nigger.” I presume you believe racism is wrong. And the same exact principles that say that “nigger” is wrong say that appropriating cultures is wrong. They’ve told you that your use of the artifact is offensive, and that using it has a history of their culture being discriminated against. There just is no consistent set of principles that makes one okay and the other not. If the result is “I don’t give a shit about how \ feels,” it is some sort of bigotry. It is saying “My culture’s feelings are more important than yours.” And, again, bringing up items that are not culturally appropriated do not prove your point. They only make it look like you are avoiding the topic. The American flag is sold as clothing _by Americans_. And I believe you are an American, and thus the flag belongs to you, meaning you can do what you want with it. Racism isn’t in play. I mean, you even admitted that at least some cultural appropriation is bad. Why in the world would you pick the Indian headdress, which has been used in a racist way against Indians for centuries, as not being appropriated? That costume of yours is the same as little kids going around playing Cowboys and Injuns–that thing we stopped doing long ago. Face it. There is no consistent moral system that says that all other forms of racism are wrong but cultural appropriation is okay. Just as you have no moral right to be racist, you have no moral right to culturally appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/206 "2016-09-25T20:24:39Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You said they “should not find it offensive.” That is you telling them to change their culture. . . . Not quite the same thing. As noted above, a “culture” doesn’t have a mind, and can’t think. It’s the individual people who take offense…and who should not. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/207 "2016-09-26T20:41:50Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yes, everyone has the legal right to be racist. But that’s just the 4chan argument. It’s literally their argument for why think they have a “right” to use the word “nigger.” I presume you believe racism is wrong. And the same exact principles that say that “nigger” is wrong say that appropriating cultures is wrong. They’ve told you that your use of the artifact is offensive, and that using it has a history of their culture being discriminated against. > > There just is no consistent set of principles that makes one okay and the other not. If the result is “I don’t give a shit about how \ feels,” it is some sort of bigotry. It is saying “My culture’s feelings are more important than yours.” The problem with using the standard of “someone finds that offensive” is that, taken to it’s logical extreme, you eliminate nearly every form of free speech that can possibly be found offensive by anyone. That includes most forms of comedy, satire, debate or discourse. What you end up with is the overly PC environment of “safe zones” and “trigger words” being described in many college campuses. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/208 "2016-09-26T21:01:36Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > . . . taken to it’s logical extreme . . . I find that phrase offensive. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/209 "2016-09-26T23:39:27Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The problem with using the standard of “someone finds that offensive” is that, taken to it’s logical extreme, you eliminate nearly every form of free speech that can possibly be found offensive by anyone. That includes most forms of comedy, satire, debate or discourse. What you end up with is the overly PC environment of “safe zones” and “trigger words” being described in many college campuses. [White student is harassed over dreadlocks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMLZivnMW_8) ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/210 "2016-09-27T00:59:17Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > **If it’s not your culture being appropriated, you don’t have the right to say it’s okay.** Oh, of course, until you sound like a hypersensitive, pretentious jackass telling me that I can’t eat sushi unless I’m Japanese or do yoga unless I am Indian. See how far down the rabbit hole of dumb-fuckery that logic goes? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/211 "2016-09-27T21:31:01Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The problem with using the standard of “someone finds that offensive” is that, taken to it’s logical extreme, you eliminate nearly every form of free speech that can possibly be found offensive by anyone. That includes most forms of comedy, satire, debate or discourse. What you end up with is the overly PC environment of “safe zones” and “trigger words” being described in many college campuses. Well that’s the end game isn’t it? Restrict and punish language in order to control thought. It’s left wing authoritarianism. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/212 "2016-09-27T22:03:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Well that’s the end game isn’t it? Restrict and punish language in order to control thought. It’s left wing authoritarianism. Please don’t start pinning all of this on the left. Most of us are seriously embarassed by this crap. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/213 "2016-09-27T22:18:45Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Well that’s the end game isn’t it? Restrict and punish language in order to control thought. It’s left wing authoritarianism. Your world where everything is black and white with no room for nuance must be a much easier one to live in. Are we even talking about Disney selling tribal tattoos as kids dress up anymore? How many people have actually read the articles published by Maori on the topic? What you are saying is as silly as me describing your position as longing for the good old days when a man could go enjoy a nice minstrel show and then going home to legally rape his wife. Not everything in the world is all of nothing. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/214 "2016-09-27T23:41:36Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Your world where everything is black and white with no room for nuance must be a much easier one to live in. > > Are we even talking about Disney selling tribal tattoos as kids dress up anymore? How many people have actually read the articles published by Maori on the topic? > > What you are saying is as silly as me describing your position as longing for the good old days when a man could go enjoy a nice minstrel show and then going home to legally rape his wife. > > Not everything in the world is all of nothing. A world where everything is black and white and conservatives are misrepresented as troglodytes? Sounds like you are looking for the Elections forum. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/215 "2016-09-28T00:21:38Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Please don’t start pinning all of this on the left. Most of us are seriously embarassed by this crap. …and please don’t go pinning that ridiculous video you posted as an example of anything other than 46 seconds of a stupid college staff member doing something stupid. Don’t pin that stuff on us. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/216 "2016-09-28T00:45:46Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > A world where everything is black and white and conservatives are misrepresented as troglodytes? Sounds like you are looking for the Elections forum. I don’t think anyone is saying that. Calm down. We acknowledge that there are “troglodytes” on both sides, okay? I hate “trigger words” and “safe spaces” ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/217 "2016-09-28T20:04:52Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > If everything stops at this point, no one has proclaimed anyone’s feelings more or less valid. > > It’s what happens next that does so. > > If my feelings are as valid as yours, then when you learn that you have inadvertently offended me, you apologize and STOP DOING THAT. I then accept your apology, and all is well. > > If, however, you decide you’ll just keep doing whatever you want to do because how dare anyone accuse you of cultural appropriation when that’s not at all what you intended, THEN you’ve decided that my feelings are less valid than yours. > > Also, if I decide that your apology for inadvertent offense is not enough to mollify my outrage, then I’ve decided that your feelings are less valid than my own. > > The cultural appropriation comes in when someone says “Oh, I didn’t realize that would offend you - but screw you, I’m doing it anyway.” > > Eating Chinese food? Not appropriation > > Wearing a cultural honor reserved for revered members of a society - Maori tattoos, eagle-feather headdresses, Purple Heart awards - probably appropriation. I would agree only if the tattoos used are accurate. If Disney made them up and they only look genuine to the uninformed, there should be no problem. Same with military ribbons and medals. Its probably an affront to many who earned an honor, but if I make up something that looks like a medal but isn’t a true depiction of a real one, then I am not stealing valor. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/218 "2016-09-28T20:09:38Z")
There used to be a store in Los Angeles, “Warbaby’s,” that specialized in pseudo militaria. Medals that looked real, but weren’t. Ribbons and hats and uniforms. Fun place, but gone now. (At least I can’t find it on any internet searches.) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/219 "2016-09-29T01:20:13Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It also has no relevance because whether something is cultural appropriation isn’t based on what any one person says. … What matters is the majority. > > It’s cultural. It’s bigger than any one person. So do I have permission to tell any lone Plains Indian to get bent if he (/ she / ze) is offended by my Halloween costume? Or at least “get bent unless you can show me a survey / poll that shows that my Halloween costume offends 51+% of Plains Indians”? ---
**Author:** ![MacSpon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@MacSpon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacSpon)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589/220 "2016-10-02T23:04:28Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > My daughter’s in love with this new diversity casting of minorities being iconic characters (the female Thor, and others mentioned before). …Women are minorities??? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-costume-for-you-you-are-the-wrong-color-you-little-racist/766589.md?page=12)