# No Dungeons and Dragons in prison **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664 "2010-01-27T18:05:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Phatlewt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a698b9/32.png) [@Phatlewt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phatlewt)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/21 "2010-01-27T20:16:09Z")
I read about this at the Above the Law Blog, and I thought this closing paragraph was spot on. > [@"\[Above](#): > > ([http://abovethelaw.com/2010/01/7th\_circuit\_rules\_dungeons\_dra.php](http://abovethelaw.com/2010/01/7th_circuit_rules_dungeons_dra.php))"]Obviously, this is where my bleeding heart gets the best of me. Because all this is about is punishment. It’s not about rehabilitation, it’s not about security, it’s about old-school vengeance carried out by state actors. He killed somebody, and we as a society found something else he liked that we can take away. So we’re going to take it away. It’s Christopher Lloyd playing a Klingon in Star Trek 3 telling Kirk he won’t beam up Spock “because you wish it.” > > I guess that is our right. I guess there is no compelling interest in making the life imprisonment of a murderer a little less horrible. But vengeance, even when legal, is still ugly. The Seventh Circuit just made a Lawful Evil decision here. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/22 "2010-01-27T20:17:06Z")
The case suddenly makes a lot more sense to me, it’s a prisoner grudge. From Marley’s link: > [@](#): > > This all changed on or about November 14, 2004, when Waupun’s long-serving Disruptive Group Coordinator, Captain Bruce Muraski, received an anonymous letter from an inmate. The letter expressed concern that Singer and three other inmates were forming a D&D gang and were trying to recruit others to join by passing around their D&D publications and touting the “rush” they got from playing the game. Muraski, Waupun’s expert on gang activity, decided to heed the letter’s advice and “check into this gang before it gets out of hand.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/23 "2010-01-27T20:18:51Z")
Speaking as someone with actual experience in running prisons, that is one ridiculous regulation. I can’t imagine any reason why I would forbid prisoners from playing role-playing games. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/24 "2010-01-27T20:30:48Z")
The fact is, the prison didn’t have to be “right” about whether or not D&D fosters gang activity. They just had to think it did in such a way as that their decision to remove the game was not aribitrary. Waupun, where the event took place, is a Maximum Security prison. The D&D playing plaintiff bludgeoned someone to death with a hammer. I’m just saying, you can’t always get what you want after you murder someone. Does anyone really disagree with the idea that the prison has the right to say what privileges and pastimes are permitted within its walls, especially its Maximum Security walls? The judge(s) didn’t say that D&D fostered gang activity, they said it was reasonable for the prison to believe it might. Is that stupid? Yes, probably. Lawful Evil strikes again. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/25 "2010-01-27T20:31:53Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Well, once they find out about all those Dwarven abilities, they’d try to get all the people under 4 feet tall to help them tunnel out. 😉 I wouldn’t use kinder / hobbits / halflings for that. Gnomes if absolutely necessary, but no halflings. > [@Projammer](#): > > And do you have any idea just how many spells there are that can be used to escape confinement? > > Start with the basic knock spell to open the doors and go from there. Dozens of levitation and flight incantations. Stone to mud. Summon Earth elemental. > > Then you add in all the glamours, charms, and illusions. Admittedly there’s no kill like overkill. For a standard cell door, though, I expect the unlock cantrip to work just fine. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/26 "2010-01-27T20:33:28Z")
I’d roll to bend bars. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/27 "2010-01-27T20:34:12Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > I’d roll to bend bars. Nothing like the quick and obvious solution. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/28 "2010-01-27T20:46:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is very, very, very, very, very stupid. > > For the record, though, the court didn’t agree that D&D fosters gang activity. It said the D&D player (Singer) failed to prove that the prison was acting irrationaly when it decided D&D might lead to gang activity in the future and undermine prison security. He had to do that in order to show the officials were out of bounds and that they had to return his gaming materials. It’s not that much of a difference, but it’s a judicial ruling, so the truth is nitpicky: it’s not enough that this interpretation of prison policy was incredibly moronic, and that not only did the prison officials not prove D&D is linked to gang activity, they straight-up admitted it hasn’t lead to gang activity in the past. Yet a further wrinkle: this was a summary judgment against Singer, which means that the court was obliged to treat resolve all factual disputes in Singer’s favor. In other words, they had to decide that if there were a trial, and if at that trial everything Singer said was found to be true, and every time Singer’s opponent made a factual claim that contradicted Singer, Singer’s version was the correct one… that if all that were true, then Singer would still lose. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/29 "2010-01-27T21:02:53Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Waupun, where the event took place, is a Maximum Security prison. Ironic, since Waupun is only about 90 miles from Lake Geneva…which any good D&Der knows is the birthplace of the game. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/30 "2010-01-27T21:06:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Speaking as someone with actual experience in running prisons, that is one ridiculous regulation. I can’t imagine any reason why I would forbid prisoners from playing role-playing games. Some role-playing games, D&D among them, encourage a group to work together to achieve goals and use intelligence and creativity to solve problems. I don’t think that is a good reasons to ban them at all, but I can see why the prison administration would prefer the prisoners dumb and unwilling to work together ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/31 "2010-01-27T21:14:33Z")
I can see security problems. Ever seen a gamer meltdown because his 17th level thief didn’t make his poisoned weapons saving throw? Now picture a 250 pound mentally unbalanced offender on a 40 year stretch for manslaughter doing the same. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/32 "2010-01-27T21:19:08Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Some role-playing games, D&D among them, encourage a group to work together to achieve goals and use intelligence and creativity to solve problems. I don’t think that is a good reasons to ban them at all, but I can see why the prison administration would prefer the prisoners dumb and unwilling to work together Yay, rehabilitation ! Social behaviour is overrated, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/33 "2010-01-27T21:33:17Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > The fact is, the prison didn’t have to be “right” about whether or not D&D fosters gang activity. They just had to think it did in such a way as that their decision to remove the game was not aribitrary. Waupun, where the event took place, is a Maximum Security prison. The D&D playing plaintiff bludgeoned someone to death with a hammer. I’m just saying, you can’t always get what you want after you murder someone. Does anyone really disagree with the idea that the prison has the right to say what privileges and pastimes are permitted within its walls, especially its Maximum Security walls? > > The judge(s) didn’t say that D&D fostered gang activity, they said it was reasonable for the prison to believe it might. Is that stupid? Yes, probably. > > Lawful Evil strikes again. Similar here in Canada. In Canada at least, a judicial review of an administrative decision like that would depend on a couple of factors: 1. Did the prision official violate any of the the prisoner’s rights under the Charter of Rights? I assume the answer here is likely to be “no”; and 2. Was the decision not rationally based? On the latter point, the courts tend to defer to the decision-maker, assuming where that person has expertise in that area that the decision-maker has insight into how to do their job. In short, they will not substitute their decision for that of the decision-maker merely because they would decide otherwise on the point, but only where there was no reasonable basis on which the decision could have been made; a fairly high onus to meet. Edit: think of judical review as the prisioners’ saving throw. In this case, they had to roll a “20”. No surprise that they failed. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/34 "2010-01-27T22:00:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The FindLaw summary: [An alternative summary](http://www.gameculture.com/2010/01/26/wisconsin-prisons-ban-dampd-over-quotgangquot-worries-courts-agree) > [@](#): > > So there you have it, geek felons, leveling up is a privilege, not a right. And your clandestine efforts to steal control of the joint from the Aryans and Nortenos by forming a nerd herd have been thwarted, so say farewell to that +6 Shank of Many Uses and stop carving polyhedra out of soap. Too bad, ‘The Rolling 20s’ is a great name for a prison gang. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/35 "2010-01-27T22:05:42Z")
I look forward to major D&D nerd Stephen Colbert getting a hold of this story. Anyway I understand the court’s reasoning in backing the prison here but the confiscation itself does not make any kind of logical sense. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/36 "2010-01-27T22:12:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I look forward to major D&D nerd Stephen Colbert getting a hold of this story. Anyway I understand the court’s reasoning in backing the prison here but the confiscation itself does not make any kind of logical sense. Clearly, Dr. Stephen Colbert, D.F.A., is now qualfied to serve as a consultant/talking head on prison reform. He enjoys keen insights into this little-understood, and highly dangerous, prison subculture. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/37 "2010-01-27T22:23:17Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Lawful Evil strikes again. Depends on who you’re talking about being Lawful Evil here. The prison officials may qualify, if they intended to harm or otherwise discomfit the prisoner. I’d say the 7th Circuit’s action would be closer to Lawful [del]Stupid[/del] Neutral. They appear to have decided the case according to the law, without malice or benevolence. The prisoner is likely Chaotic by default, but could be Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Evil, or possibly even Chaotic Good if his crime had similar motives to the one committed by Billy Jack… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/38 "2010-01-27T22:27:51Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Depends on who you’re talking about being Lawful Evil here. The prison officials may qualify, if they intended to harm or otherwise discomfit the prisoner. I’d say the 7th Circuit’s action would be closer to Lawful [del]Stupid[/del] Neutral. They appear to have decided the case according to the law, without malice or benevolence. > > The prisoner is likely Chaotic by default, but could be Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Evil, or possibly even Chaotic Good if his crime had similar motives to the one committed by Billy Jack… Chaotic Good seems unlikely, given his history. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/39 "2010-01-27T22:33:57Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Chaotic Good seems unlikely, given his history. Agreed. Apparently the victim was his sister’s boyfriend, and she testified against him during the murder trial. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664/40 "2010-01-27T23:20:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yet a further wrinkle: this was a summary judgment against Singer, which means that the court was obliged to treat resolve all factual disputes in Singer’s favor. In other words, they had to decide that if there were a trial, and if at that trial everything Singer said was found to be true, and every time Singer’s opponent made a factual claim that contradicted Singer, Singer’s version was the correct one… that if all that were true, then Singer would still lose. It’s been a long time since you have practiced. You have described the way it works for the rich and powerful. Impoverished parties are routinely dismissed on summary judgment and appeals buried in quick unpublished decisions in California. The one good thing that has happened in recent years is that in federal court you can cite unpublished opinions. Many state courts do not allow that, including California. All sorts of interesting things happen in unpublished opinions: clear repeated objections in records suddenly do not exist and only one party’s interpretation of the facts are considered. That said, prison wouldn’t be much of a punishment if people like me were allowed to play D & D to while away the time. It would be like getting lifetime appointment to District Court. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-dungeons-and-dragons-in-prison/526664.md?page=3)