# No exclusionism. Unless it reflects \*our\* bias. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 22, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049 "2018-03-22T23:54:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/21 "2018-03-23T07:35:25Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > If only there was a word for that… Repulicanism? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/22 "2018-03-23T07:57:56Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Repulicanism? You’ve got the E and the P in the right place, and A, R, L are also included, though not in their current location. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/23 "2018-03-23T08:35:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Trump hates gay people. Or at the very least, he’s willing to throw us under the bus to curry favor with people who do, which is effectively the same thing. This. I don’t care whether Trump personally hates gays - as long as he does the same things that someone who hates gays would do, it’s a distinction without a difference. And same for the tired old trope that a given politician or public figure isn’t really a racist: if the policies they advocate for are those that racists advocate for, then I don’t give a damn what’s in their heart of hearts. You shall know them by their fruits. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/24 "2018-03-23T09:23:39Z")
> [@Jake\_Bullet\_Traffic\_Control](#): > > Trump’s a cunt but (so far, at least) he’s a better President than W. This is such a low bar to clear because of a few specific actions Bush took that ended up being stupidly catastrophic. On a day-to-day level, Trump is far worse. He just hasn’t had his Iraq. _Yet._ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/25 "2018-03-23T11:46:11Z")
What if Trump wanted you to decorate a cake for him? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/26 "2018-03-23T11:57:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What if Trump wanted you to decorate a cake for him? > > Regards, > > Shodan As much as he wishes (and believes), being a Trump is not a protected class. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/27 "2018-03-23T12:34:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What if Trump wanted you to decorate a cake for him? If he promises to eat it, I would bake him the most special cake ever. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/28 "2018-03-23T12:35:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Exclusion is a good thing when it’s done towards racists, authoritarians, thieves, and bigots. It’s a bad thing when it’s done arbitrarily on the basis of neutral characteristics, such as race, gender, or sexuality. I’m… kind of surprised that this is a thing you needed explained to you? > > And I’d stop patronizing your store. > > See, the thing is, Trump hates people like me. And he’s actively using the state as a weapon against us. He’s removing federal protections that Obama put into place through executive order. He’s backing legislation that undercuts laws guaranteeing us legal equality. He’s appointing judges with demonstrated histories of anti-gay prejudice. For fuck’s sake, he made _Mike Pence_ Vice President! Trump hates gay people. Or at the very least, he’s willing to throw us under the bus to curry favor with people who do, which is effectively the same thing. > > The fact that you’re willing to smile and shake hands with that? Yeah, you can go right to hell. My rights as an American citizen, my dignity as a human being, aren’t a “agree to disagree” kind of thing. And there’s a lot of people from at least two other protected classes who feel the same way. > > Well, it’s great that you draw the line at actual murder. Not great that you’re so sanguine about racism, homophobia, and religious bigotry, though. > > Kinda makes you a shitty person yourself, really. Yes, political/social violence is still violence. There’s no such thing as “peacefully” advocating for the rights of other classes of human beings to be made lesser, that is explicitly an act of violence against those people regardless of whether blood has been shed yet. That said, I don’t begrudge anyone for serving a political figure or a celebrity with awful views (or someone closely associated with one), but when you’re tweeting photos or otherwise publicizing it, it’s somewhat clear you’re actually proud of spending time with that figure and I think that’s more the problem here. Even then, there are exceptions, if you need the job to stay out of poverty and not playing buddy buddy will get you fired, I’m not begrudging you for keeping your head down. But if you actually make the decision to publicize it… yeah, that’s sending a message. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/29 "2018-03-23T12:48:32Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > As much as he wishes (and believes), being a Trump is not a protected class. I am talking about moral consistency. Is it morally correct to force a private business owner to violate their principles? If you say Yes, then you have to decorate the cake and you have to serve Trump. If you say No, then you don’t have to serve Trump and you don’t have to make the cake. If you say ‘you have to do the cake but not serve Trump or Trump supporters’ then you are a moral hypocrite. It is pretty straightforward, which is why it will take a few posts or pages to try and talk it away or change the subject. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/30 "2018-03-23T13:05:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am talking about moral consistency. Is it morally correct to force a private business owner to violate their principles? If you say Yes, then you have to decorate the cake and you have to serve Trump. If you say No, then you don’t have to serve Trump and you don’t have to make the cake. What if I say “it depends on the circumstances”? Because that’s the only reasonable answer. A private business owner can have any number of “principles”, from serving tainted meat, to racial separatism, to support for a given political stance, to not serving a guy who’d caused trouble in the place before, to anything else you can imagine. Some of those principles can be accommodated by society, and others cannot. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/31 "2018-03-23T13:18:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am talking about moral consistency. No, you’re not. You’re talking about whether a personal boycott of a business who does things you don’t like is comparable to the business boycotting customers who do things it doesn’t like. It turns out the law (and “force”) only has something to say about the latter, not the former. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/32 "2018-03-23T13:33:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am talking about moral consistency. Is it morally correct to force a private business owner to violate their principles? If you say Yes, then you have to decorate the cake and you have to serve Trump. If you say No, then you don’t have to serve Trump and you don’t have to make the cake. > > If you say ‘you have to do the cake but not serve Trump or Trump supporters’ then you are a moral hypocrite. > > It is pretty straightforward, which is why it will take a few posts or pages to try and talk it away or change the subject. > > Regards, > Shodan Yes, it’s pretty straight forward. What’s your position? If a business owner’s moral principles require that he murder his customers, is it morally correct to force him to violate his principles? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/33 "2018-03-23T13:35:49Z")
Wow. This may be the most effective OP any long-time Doper can have posted, if the effect desired is to completely destroy my opinion of that Doper. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/34 "2018-03-23T13:52:27Z")
If a Trump family member showed up at my workplace and wanted to know about e-learning accounting courses, I would first be astonished that they could read well enough to gain such interest, and then gladly help them out. If they started showing attitude and unwillingness to cooperate, I’d tell them I can’t help them and show them the way out. Then post here. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/35 "2018-03-23T14:05:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am talking about moral consistency. Is it morally correct to force a private business owner to violate their principles? If you say Yes, then you have to decorate the cake and you have to serve Trump. If you say No, then you don’t have to serve Trump and you don’t have to make the cake. > > If you say ‘you have to do the cake but not serve Trump or Trump supporters’ then you are a moral hypocrite. > > It is pretty straightforward, which is why it will take a few posts or pages to try and talk it away or change the subject. > > Regards, > Shodan What a black and white world you must live in, in which you can’t see nuance in these issues. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/36 "2018-03-23T14:07:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am talking about moral consistency. Is it morally correct to force a private business owner to violate their principles? If you say Yes, then you have to decorate the cake and you have to serve Trump. If you say No, then you don’t have to serve Trump and you don’t have to make the cake. > > If you say ‘you have to do the cake but not serve Trump or Trump supporters’ then you are a moral hypocrite. > > It is pretty straightforward, which is why it will take a few posts or pages to try and talk it away or change the subject. > > Regards, > Shodan False equivalence has to be among the laziest arguments there are, it’s the kind of thinking that makes racists ask why there isn’t a White History Month. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/37 "2018-03-23T14:12:40Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > And you may or may not have heard about [Donald Trump, Jr. visiting the Sarris chocolate factory](http://triblive.com/state/pennsylvania/13416273-74/sarris-candies-slammed-on-twitter-for-mondays-trump-jr-visit) in Pennsylvania. Let me guess, he turned out to be a [bad egg](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a8/1c/b1/a81cb16bd968044123b64ee04ad44449.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/38 "2018-03-23T14:24:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What if Trump wanted you to decorate a cake for him? > > Regards, > Shodan That is funny! I would be polite to Trump and serve him or his family if they came to my place of business even though I think he is an unmitigated disaster and a danger to our country. His support of white nationalists, his cavalier treatment of our laws and norms, his enriching himself at the taxpayer coffers, and his willingness to disregard our international relations are going to leave the country weaker and endanger both myself and my children. But, like it or not, he is the duly elected President of the United States and should be treated with a level of respect when you disagree with him. All of that said, reading the OP I hear echoes of similar statements about Presidents Obama and Clinton. I remember reading comments from (supposed) uniformed soldiers and other Americans that had taken oaths to support our Constitution and/or the rule of law make disparaging remarks about the President and their unwillingness to support him. So who gives a shit what people on the internet say? The people who are upset at the salon and the candle/chocolate company are morons. I would not give them the time of day, except to maybe encourage them to vote when the election comes around as they will clearly vote for candidates I am supporting this election. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/39 "2018-03-23T14:36:08Z")
With the America-hating fuckstick as the customer, I’d see a good argument for tacking on a _having-to-deal-with-an-America-hating-fuckstick_ surcharge. Also for demanding cash in payment, in advance. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/40 "2018-03-23T15:07:18Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > What a black and white world you must live in, in which you can’t see nuance in these issues. A far more fitting reply to Der Trihs comment in this thread than anything Shodan said, in my opinion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049.md?page=3)