# No exclusionism. Unless it reflects \*our\* bias. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 22, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049 "2018-03-22T23:54:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/81 "2018-03-24T04:33:45Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > He has a point that he can’t have actual experiential knowledge, and that probably tempers his emotional intelligence on the subject. But that’s not the only form of knowledge out there. I invite him to read up from the many LGBT people like **Miller** who have detailed all this stuff. Google is rather easy to use. She. She talked about her husband. Now, this does not prove that she is female today (thank Og) but given the context it seems unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/82 "2018-03-24T07:31:09Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Look, I voted for Hillary\*. I was devastated on election night, and for quite a while afterwards. But by the time of the inauguration, I had rallied. I asked myself, what am I doing to help my country? So I started doing volunteer work. Through that, I got to know people who voted for Trump. And they are not evil racists and bigots. I have not heard anyone say “Yeah, we gotta get dem dang homersexuls!” What’s important to them is more work and increased industry. **BPC** , I followed your link, and I’m not denying what you said, but I’m not going to “question this entire narrative” based on one figure in a link, compared to people I’ve talked to one-on-one. How many people have you spoken to? A hundred? Five hundred? Several hundred thousand? Data \>\>\> Anecdotes. The reality is that the further down the socioeconomic ladder you go, the more likely any given individual at that income level was to vote for Clinton. You’re just _wrong_ about that point. Did a lot of Trump voters care about the economy? Well, [we can check that too](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html) - and it turns out that among voters who listed “the economy” as their most important issue, Clinton led by _10 points_. Where did Trump win big? People whose most important issues were immigration and terrorism. Let’s talk about this for a moment: > [@](#): > > Through that, I got to know people who voted for Trump. And they are not evil racists and bigots. People don’t tend to do things they know are wrong. People don’t tend to do things they identify as “evil”. The folks who voted for Trump because they were worried about immigrants taking their jobs aren’t thinking, “Gotta hurt those brown people!” But then, neither are the people who voted for Trump because they’re worried about Mexican immigrants changing America’s culture, or becoming a solid liberal voting bloc. Or the people who think “white culture” is superior. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/83 "2018-03-24T09:44:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you don’t think you have any personal experience with LGBTQ people you either live in a cave, or people are afraid of how you will react if they out themselves to you. Or the people with whom that kind of personal information might come up aren’t LGBTQ, and those LGBTQ people she knows aren’t the kind of people with whom she has that kind of conversations. My mother was enormously surprised when she heard a certain former classmate of mine had gotten married to a guy. She’d known him for a long time, but she’d never been in a situation to notice that he was more likely to get lost looking at another boy than at one of us girls. None of my classmates was surprised in the slightest, our universal reaction was “oh, that’s nice, all happiness to them!” ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/84 "2018-03-24T15:28:57Z")
Exactly. The few (and yes, it’s few; does that make me a bad person because I don’t seek out gay people to befriend?) non-het people I know, I’m not about to say “Hey, Heather, what’s it like to be a lesbian?” or “So Jeff, since knowing one gay man means knowing them all, I’d like your opinion on the transgender bathroom bill!” I also don’t ask friends who are black or Latino about race-related issues. Nor has anyone said to me, “Rilch, you’re a woman, so I’m going to assume you’ve been sexually harassed…” **BPC** , the people I’m associated with are not “worried about Mexican immigrants changing America’s culture, or becoming a solid liberal voting bloc.” Nor do they “think “white culture” is superior.” None of that applies. It just makes economic sense. The more unskilled workers who come to the US, [the lower wages will go](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/trump-clinton-immigration-economy-unemployment-jobs-214216). Employers won’t want to pay a comfortable wage or even a living wage to citizens when they could pay survival wages to recent arrivals. Then you’ve got the skilled workers, leaving their countries – to what purpose? So there’ll be no one with their capabilities to help rebuild the countries they left. Thereby putting a [strain on our economy](https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/09/negative-effects-of-immigration-on-the-economy.html) and letting their country of origin bottom out. I’m not saying that immigration should stop entirely, or that there’s [nothing good about it at all](https://immigration.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000788). But it’s not a matter of Those People; it’s not a matter of “They’re taking our jobs!”. But there **are** negatives. And people can see those negatives without being evil, or even jerks. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/85 "2018-03-24T15:32:45Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Exactly. The few (and yes, it’s few; does that make me a bad person because I don’t seek out gay people to befriend?) non-het people I know, I’m not about to say “Hey, Heather, what’s it like to be a lesbian?” or “So Jeff, since knowing one gay man means knowing them all, I’d like your opinion on the transgender bathroom bill!” I also don’t ask friends who are black or Latino about race-related issues. Nor has anyone said to me, “Rilch, you’re a woman, so I’m going to assume you’ve been sexually harassed…” The problem is your inability to see gay people as people just like you, who would like to live their lives with minimal interference and judgement about how bad they are. I don’t have to get deep into PoC lives to get the basic idea that I don’t want them hurt in ways that would bother me. I learn nuance from them, and what specific things make their situation uniquely hard, but I don’t need that to get the fundamental issues of equality. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/86 "2018-03-24T15:41:55Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > The problem is your inability to see gay people as people just like you, who would like to live their lives with minimal interference and judgement about how bad they are. Where do you even get that? It’s because I see non-het people as people that I don’t want to focus on the one thing that makes them different from me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/87 "2018-03-24T16:06:46Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Where do you even get that? It’s because I see non-het people as people that I don’t want to focus on the one thing that makes them different from me. It’s because you don’t appear to see the very obvious and intentional harm to LGBTQ people that this administration campaigned on and is now trying to accomplish. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/88 "2018-03-24T18:35:12Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > I’m not about to say “Hey, Heather, what’s it like to be a lesbian?” or “So Jeff, since knowing one gay man means knowing them all, I’d like your opinion on the transgender bathroom bill!” I also don’t ask friends who are black or Latino about race-related issues. Why not? How can you understand others’ life experiences without asking them? F’rinstance… **Rilch** , because you’re a woman I _do_ very much assume you’ve been sexually harassed. . ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/89 "2018-03-24T19:17:28Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > So you’re bound to have heard about Ivanka Trump visiting a beauty salon in Iowa Nope. Hadn’t heard of it. My twitter was busy poking fun at her dumbass STEM photoshoot and is now railing against the resurgence of the military transgender ban. And I haven’t seen it mentioned in the NYT or Post. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/90 "2018-03-24T20:02:18Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Where do you even get that? It’s because I see non-het people as people that I don’t want to focus on the one thing that makes them different from me. So you’re unwilling to fight your own ignorance with the people you know, and instead blast it all over the Dope, expecting it to go over well? Your friends would most likely be delighted to discuss the very real issues that they face on a daily basis. I can’t think of a single time where I’ve asked a friend/coworker/etc. (in an appropriate setting - your cubicle at work not being the best choice for a serious discussion) about their thoughts on the issues plaguing them where I’ve gotten anything close to “I’M A PERSON TOO!” as a response. Pretending like you see them as “just like me” leads to the stupidity of the OP. It’s not “focusing on the one thing that makes them different”, it’s attempting to understand how that one thing impacts them in ways you’ll never know. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/91 "2018-03-24T20:35:25Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Pretending like you see them as “just like me” leads to the stupidity of the OP. It’s not “focusing on the one thing that makes them different”, it’s attempting to understand how that one thing impacts them in ways you’ll never know. To use a phrase seen before, color-blind turns into color-_oblivious_, and you can substitute gender or whatever trait is relevant. The delicate balance to be made is indeed in the sense of not making it all about the one difference, \*but \*not pretending it’s not there either. However, to be fair, trying to reach out in that sense can be risky – the persons with the difference may \*themselves \*be weary of other-group acquaintances “reaching out” to engage because they may feel they are being pressed into being the other’s go-to Mr. Gay, Ms. Person of Color, Mr. Gun Owner, or what they say gets used as a general reference. ISTM \*\*Rilchiam \*\*feels that sort of conversation requires a level of closeness and trust she may feel uncomfortable about attempting as an “outsider”. Which IMO would be a Catch-22 for all concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/92 "2018-03-24T20:43:12Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Exactly. The few (and yes, it’s few; does that make me a bad person because I don’t seek out gay people to befriend?) non-het people I know, I’m not about to say “Hey, Heather, what’s it like to be a lesbian?” or “So Jeff, since knowing one gay man means knowing them all, I’d like your opinion on the transgender bathroom bill!” I also don’t ask friends who are black or Latino about race-related issues. Nor has anyone said to me, “Rilch, you’re a woman, so I’m going to assume you’ve been sexually harassed…” > > **BPC** , the people I’m associated with are not “worried about Mexican immigrants changing America’s culture, or becoming a solid liberal voting bloc.” Nor do they “think “white culture” is superior.” None of that applies. It just makes economic sense. You’re willing to talk to Trump voters about how they feel, but you don’t want to do the same with your friends? Obviously, knowing one gay man doesn’t mean you know them all, but you don’t know all Trump voters either. If these people are truly your friends, and not just people you happen to know, don’t you care about what’s going on in their lives? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/93 "2018-03-24T20:51:08Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > And you may or may not have heard about Donald Trump, Jr. visiting the Sarris chocolate factory in Pennsylvania. He was campaigning for Rick Saccone, Republican candidate in the PA Congress special election. > > Another explosion of tweets. People are never buying Sarris candies again, how could they, traitors, yadda yadda. They conveniently overlooked this: > > … (And in that last link, with a sense of humor as well.) No, they went right to this: > > … So it seems that these slacktivists, these social justice warriors, think the salon should have refused service to Ivanka, and Sarris should have refused entry to Donald Jr. and Saccone, together or separately. IOW, excluded them. So exclusion is a good thing, when it’s directed towards someone you don’t like or support. And if Sarris really does lose business over this, what’s that going to help? Give up chocolate JUST because a Trump bought some? It’s chocolate! I don’t give that up for ANY reason! In other words, much as I despise the Orange One, Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha (with a mouth full of chocolates) ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/94 "2018-03-24T20:54:13Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > This is such a low bar to clear because of a few specific actions Bush took that ended up being stupidly catastrophic. On a day-to-day level, Trump is far worse. He just hasn’t had his Iraq. _Yet._ Just wait. He has a new rah rah rah CIA guy, and he just hired Warmonger Bolton. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/95 "2018-03-25T00:34:12Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Where do you even get that? It’s because I see non-het people as people that I don’t want to focus on the one thing that makes them different from me. Because you see them as people minus what makes them different, there is a an important and significant part of their lives that you refuse to see and they are forced to hide from you. That part of their lives that you choose to “not see” contains love, fear, happiness, sadness, concern, conflict…all of which they cannot share with you. There are friends that cannot share with you, places they cannot take you to, and topics that are important to them, and to the country, they cannot talk to you about. If your friends treated you that way, how long would that friendship last? ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/96 "2018-03-25T15:42:00Z")
The OP is perfectly willing to talk to random Trump voters deeply enough to assert that they aren’t bigots, but not willing to talk to non-het people to learn anything about the struggles they are facing under this administration. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/97 "2018-03-25T18:40:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What if Trump wanted you to decorate a cake for him? > > Regards, > Shodan \*\*Will and Grace \*\*covered this one weeks ago. As for serving Trump, well thankfully I don’t work at McDonald’s but if I did I would serve him. I wouldn’t shake his hand though, because when does a cashier ever shake a customer’s hand? If he went to shake mine it would be a photo op to prove how he’s an everyman. I wouldn’t want to be part of that. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/98 "2018-03-25T19:08:38Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Look, I voted for Hillary\*. I was devastated on election night, and for quite a while afterwards. But by the time of the inauguration, I had rallied. I asked myself, what am I doing to help my country? So I started doing volunteer work. Through that, I got to know people who voted for Trump. And they are not evil racists and bigots. I have not heard anyone say “Yeah, we gotta get dem dang homersexuls!” What’s important to them is more work and increased industry. **BPC** , I followed your link, and I’m not denying what you said, but I’m not going to “question this entire narrative” based on one figure in a link, compared to people I’ve talked to one-on-one. That’s great, but considering that you’ve somehow missed the overwhelming amount of racism, homophobia, and religious bigotry coming out of this White House, its hard to take your report about your new friends sterling character at face value. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/99 "2018-03-25T19:31:39Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > The OP is perfectly willing to talk to random Trump voters deeply enough to assert that they aren’t bigots, but not willing to talk to non-het people to learn anything about the struggles they are facing under this administration. Well, to be fair I’d bet there are more Trump voters in this country than there are non-hets, and all those MAGA hats make them easier to find, too. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049/100 "2018-03-25T19:37:13Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > But I think people who have this reflexive hatred of him are showing that they have just as poor a character as they claim he has.\*\* > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > The topic as a whole is an interesting and complicated one about which reasonable people can probably disagree. That said, this last sentence is just nonsense. > > There’s no universe in which “refusing service to a public figure whose views you disagree with” is even in the same universe of poor character that Trump has too-frequently demonstrated himself to occupy. It’s not grabbing 'em by the pussy. It’s not firing people via tweet. It’s not painting all of his opponents as enemies of the people. It’s not even remotely comparable. Hate to bust your bubble, **Max**. but **Rilchiam** is dead on target, and you aren’t. You guys keep harping on that “grab 'em by the pussy” line as if it had some kind of meaning or value, and you use it to try to justify a totally irrational hatred of Trump. Do you hold the same level of hatred for Bill Clinton? I’m curious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-exclusionism-unless-it-reflects-our-bias/811049.md?page=6)