# No, fascism hasn't come to America. Here is why **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 10, 2016, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321 "2016-11-10T04:04:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Itself](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d07c76/32.png) [@Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/41 "2016-11-11T00:45:38Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > So please, people, stop acting like the sky has fallen! Fuck your ill-informed condescension. We elected an inexperienced, incurious authoritarian in 2000, and we wound up starting a disastrous and unnecessary war, curtailing civil liberties, condoning torture, and causing a deep, protracted recession that nearly turned into another Great Depression. Trump is not going to start another world war or set up concentration camps. but that’s a pretty low bar for the most powerful person in the world. Trump is more inexperienced, more incurious, and more authoritarian than Bush. Bush, for all his failings, was a much better human being than Trump. He never threatened to lock up Gore or Kerry; he never bragged about groping women; he never started a racist movement to claim his opponent wasn’t actually American; he never called Mexicans rapists; and he never threatened to not accept the results of the election if it didn’t go his way (and that was with the 2000 debacle). Given how bad things were under Bush— and given the lack of opposition in Congress and (given the impending retirements) the Supreme Court— Trump is quite likely to start another war, devastate the economy, and abuse the powers of his office. We won’t have another civil war, but it will still be very bad. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/42 "2016-11-11T01:10:37Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > He will not create a german level of fascism, but he will push the US in an authoritarian direction. > > His hostility to an independent judiciary and independent media has been on show for a while. > > His refusal to respect elections and democracy unless he gets the results he wants. > > His threats to jail or subtly encourage his voters to kill his political opponents. Keep in mind that under W, VP Dick Cheney was in charge of an international death squad (delta force members would travel around killing terrorists. We’ve now given this power to Trump). > > His open embrace of torture and war crimes. > > His subtle hints that he could end street crime in Chicago in a week by turning it into a police state. > > His willingness to abuse the legal system to rob and intimidate people with endless lawsuits. Now we have made him the most powerful person in the US, imagine the power he has now to get revenge on his enemies. > > These are all serious risks. He isn’t Hitler, but he is as close to a fascist dictator as we can realistically get in 21st century America. Yes. And beware of what comes down the pike after a major terrorist attack. That can serve as the next Reichstag fire. Just as 9-11 got us the patriot act. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/43 "2016-11-11T01:21:08Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > But when THE DEMS do it, it’s treason. Duh. Speaking of treason. Facing questions about his ties to Moscow because of his statements in favor of Russian President Vladimir Putin, Trump repeatedly denied having any contact with the Russian government. [however](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/moscow-had-contacts-with-trump-team-during-campaign-russian-diplomat-says/2016/11/10/28fb82fa-a73d-11e6-9bd6-184ab22d218e_story.html?hpid=hp_rhp-bignews4_russia-850a%3Ahomepage%2Fstory) . . . > [@](#): > > But Russia’s Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov, in an interview with the state-run Interfax news agency, said that ‘there were contacts’ with the Trump team. ‘Obviously, we know most of the people from his entourage,’ Rybakov said. ‘Those people have always been in the limelight in the United States and have occupied high-ranking positions. I cannot say that all of them but quite a few have been staying in touch with Russian representatives. We have just begun to consider ways of building dialogue with the future Donald Trump administration and channels we will be using for those purposes,’ Ryabkov said. The reporting so far at least, doesn’t make it look as clear cut as the treasons of Nixon in 1968 or Reagan in 1980, but maybe the FBI can investigate over the next six weeks. Or, if Comey was really in cahoots with the Trumpsters, Not. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/44 "2016-11-11T01:27:24Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Since the OP did a reverse Godwin, I’m going to mention one point of similarity between Donald and Adolph. > > Hitler ran off the rails (militarily speaking) because his initial successes (overruling the advice of much more knowledgeable military leaders) led him to overvalue his judgment and ignore good advice. > > Trump has succeeded to this point beyond all expectations by following his instincts and judgment and ignoring all the experienced politicians and pundits who told him to do things differently. > > It’s comical to see the same people now telling him what he has to do to succeed in the Presidency. Given his personality and track record, he has every reason to ignore them and continue doing the same things that got him into the White House. > > At some point (quite possibly many points) he will crash and burn, while blaming sinister outside forces for his troubles (like you-know-who did). Everyone who has an attic should get ready to offer sanctuary to those in need. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/45 "2016-11-11T02:55:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Now is a good time to see the difference between Trump and fascists. > > When followers of non-fascists commit political violence, non-fascists condemn those actions in the strongest possible language and work to end it. > > Violence is now being committed by Trump’s followers. What will he do? To me one major difference between Trump and other fascist movements is Trump doesn’t have an entire movement of fascists to run the government. He just has himself. Pence is not a proto-fascist. The republican party supports voter suppression but I wouldn’t go so far as to call them proto-fascist the way Trump is. However I would say Trump could easily staff his executive with proto-fascists like himself. But he’d probably staff it with yes men. But people like me have been 100% wrong on everything so far so take what we say with a grain of salt. Trump could turn out to be a good president who willingly hands over power and mostly abides by the law. It would fit the prediction model of people totally getting him wrong to date. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/46 "2016-11-11T03:03:51Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > Yes. And beware of what comes down the pike after a major terrorist attack. That can serve as the next Reichstag fire. Just as 9-11 got us the patriot act. Shit. Hadn’t thought of that. He could easily use a terror act to concentrate power in the executive branch. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/47 "2016-11-11T09:51:12Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Trump has succeeded to this point beyond all expectations by following his instincts and judgment and ignoring all the experienced politicians and pundits who told him to do things differently. Point of order: we don’t know if he’s ignored them or listened and decided against them or listened to his own team. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/48 "2016-11-11T11:55:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Somebody has to be the last President of the United States, just like someone had to be the last Emperor of Rome, or the last Khan of Mongolia. > > I’m pretty sure Trump isn’t going to be it. But then, **how many Romans thought Romulus Augustus was just going to be a bit of a rough patch, and afterwards everything would get better?** (my bolding) Zero, that’s the number. Unless you’d followed it by 30 smileys, that phrase shows a complete lack of historical knowledge. Rome had been done with 50 years before at least, it was just waiting for the final breath. > [@octopus](#): > > As another poster said and to paraphrase, is this the time we get to see the left on board with checks and balances and a stricter reading of the constitution? I was going to answet that but **Wiil Farnaby** had it best. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The main reason Trump is called a fascist is the immigration policy. Yes he wants to increase the extraordinary number of Obama deportations. Obama already had a staggering number of deportations, but that’s ok because he doesn’t talk about it. Obama has assassinated US citizens without due process. We were already on the path to Trump, but it was just hidden from view. > [@sciurophobic](#): > > [Republicans now want to eliminate the filibuster.](http://www.salon.com/2016/11/10/after-eight-years-of-using-the-filibuster-against-president-obama-republicans-now-want-to-get-rid-of-it/) > > The utter hypocrisy of the Republican Party is beyond belief. It should be the Democrats who should eliminate it. They complained that it didn’t let them run the country. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Now is a good time to see the difference between Trump and fascists. > > When followers of non-fascists commit political violence, non-fascists condemn those actions in the strongest possible language and work to end it. > > Violence is now being committed by Trump’s followers. What will he do? I don’t like using it but, sorry, you American don’t know what political violence is. By non-fascists, do you mean socialists/communists, cuz they lurv them some violence everywhere in the world. Call after 10,000 dead in a year and then we’ll talk. Also, most American don’t know what fascism is. It’s no simply a by-word for “bad guy”. > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Everyone who has an attic should get ready to offer sanctuary to those in need. OMFG, you have to joking! First, because you thing it’ll even remotely, farfetchedly come to that. You guys have an incredibly strong democracy. You’d see Bush and Bill and Obama and 97% of Americans on the street opposing such a government. Second, it’s cute that you think attics would work. NSA anyone? Enlarged and empowered by super-constitution-guy good ol’ Barry O. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/49 "2016-11-11T12:32:40Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Second, it’s cute that you think attics would work. NSA anyone? Enlarged and empowered by super-constitution-guy good ol’ Barry O. Shhhhh. I think we all get that “attic” here is code for “basement”. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/50 "2016-11-11T12:49:04Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > First, because you thing it’ll even remotely, farfetchedly come to that. You guys have an incredibly strong democracy. You’d see Bush and Bill and Obama and 97% of Americans on the street opposing such a government. Sadly you wouldn’t. These days you’d be lucky to get 65%. The crazification factor alone is about 28%, and I bet you could convince at least another 7% that fascism was necessary to protect the country from The Other. More, if FoxNews goes along with it. ---
**Author:** ![fervour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@fervour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fervour)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/51 "2016-11-11T13:02:30Z")
Of course fascism has come to America. What do you think fascism means? Here is Fascism defined by google: [“an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.”](https://www.google.com/search?q=define+fascism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=define+fascism) that doesn’t mean it’s permanent. It can be fixed ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/52 "2016-11-11T13:09:51Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Shit. Hadn’t thought of that. He could easily use a terror act to concentrate power in the executive branch. He could, but he doesn’t need to. Your country’s political safeguard against extremism has always been the separation of powers, each branch kicking sand in the other two’s eyes. It’s inefficient by design. But Trump’s got the executive and the legislative firmly in the bag, and he’ll have a good handle on the judiciary as soon as his presidency begins in earnest because the legislative simply refused to accept a Supreme Justice nominated by Obama. If, god forbid, the Notorious RBG kicks it within the next few years that judiciary majority will be sewn in for a good 20 years at least, and you can bet dollars to bellybutton lint those two seats will be sat on by blokes who’ll make Scalia look like Kropotkin. So no checks, no balances. And while that \*has \*happened in the past, back then the name of the game was still compromise, conciliation, middle of the road. Today it’s fuck you right in the ear. Extinction event is not too strong a phrase, I reckon. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/53 "2016-11-11T13:21:41Z")
> [@fervour](#): > > Of course fascism has come to America. What do you think fascism means? Here is Fascism defined by google: [“an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.”](https://www.google.com/search?q=define+fascism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=define+fascism) > > that doesn’t mean it’s permanent. It can be fixed But people these days equate Fascism with authoritarian, nationalistic _bigotry_. For instance, when the Nazis registered the Jews. So in order to be truly similar to fascism, Trump would have to support something like registering the Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/54 "2016-11-11T13:23:55Z")
Supporting a ban on Muslims entering the country would help as well. And yet, Trump hasn’t supported either of these policies, so therefore, he isn’t a Fascist. I mean, if I he _did_, then he’d be a fascist, but I have full agreement with the OP’s premise. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/55 "2016-11-11T14:29:44Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Shhhhh. > > I think we all get that “attic” here is code for “basement”. The problem is not one of architecture. Saying “I’ll have my attic ready” is empty virtue-signaling. > [@Gyrate](#): > > Sadly you wouldn’t. These days you’d be lucky to get 65%. The crazification factor alone is about 28%, and I bet you could convince at least another 7% that fascism was necessary to protect the country from The Other. More, if FoxNews goes along with it. Really? Man, the US sucks, why are you living there? What a horrbile country, run while you can!!! You gringos are so funny. > [@fervour](#): > > Of course fascism has come to America. What do you think fascism means? Here is Fascism defined by google: [“an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.”](https://www.google.com/search?q=define+fascism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=define+fascism) > > that doesn’t mean it’s permanent. It can be fixed Well, using google for that is kind of a primary school effort. - Fascists are not right-wing (not left). - They are vehemently anti-communist. - Command economy, therefore, anti-capitalist anti-classically-liberal - Nationalist. - Militaristic. - Limited freedom of speech/press. - Racism is not a part of traditional fascism. It was the “special ingredient” in German Fascism. - Supported by middle and upper class (who benefit from governemt monopolies) and the military. > [@Ludovic](#): > > But people these days equate Fascism with authoritarian, nationalistic _bigotry_. For instance, when the Nazis registered the Jews. So in order to be truly similar to fascism, Trump would have to support something like registering the Muslims. Ageed. If someon wants to use twenty-dollar words they have to use them correctly. ---
**Author:** ![fervour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@fervour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fervour)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/56 "2016-11-11T14:32:35Z")
it’s over. I’m outta here. You should be too. That i can type should make you scared. I’M DRUNK. THEY DON’T CARE ABOUT YOU. THIS IS IT. YOU CARE ABOUT THEM, THEY DON’T CARE ABOUT YOU. IT’S OVER. they aren’t mad. they just don’t like you, OK? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/57 "2016-11-11T14:49:56Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The problem is not one of architecture. Saying “I’ll have my attic ready” is empty virtue-signaling. You wouldn’t say that if you saw my basement. My man-cave area has a great sound system, a mini-fridge loaded with beer, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/58 "2016-11-11T15:21:01Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Second, it’s cute that you think attics would work. NSA anyone? It’s sad that you’ve already been planning a way to counter that. “How can we improve on History? You know, so None escape this time. Suggestions?” ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/59 "2016-11-11T18:37:28Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > You wouldn’t say that if you saw my basement. My man-cave area has a great sound system, a mini-fridge loaded with beer, etc. How many transsexual illegal immigrant Muslims can it hold? For how long? Also, you seem to not know what virtue-signalling is. Hint, it doesn’t mean “look, I have money.” > [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > It’s sad that you’ve already been planning a way to counter that. > > “How can we improve on History? You know, so None escape this time. Suggestions?” Who’s planning what? You, and nobody in this thread, is any more than fan-wanking to the possibility of saying “I’m ready to figth the good fight” It sounds like KAty Perry’s tweets “WE WILL NEVER BE SILENCED” or “THE REVOLUTION IS COMING” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321/60 "2016-11-11T20:12:07Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I don’t like using it but, sorry, you American don’t know what political violence is. By non-fascists, do you mean socialists/communists, cuz they lurv them some violence everywhere in the world. Call after 10,000 dead in a year and then we’ll talk. Gosh–sorry, I forgot that an idiot might enter this conversation, so I assumed everyone would realize I was talking about in the US, given that it was a US election. I’ll know better for next time! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fascism-hasnt-come-to-america-here-is-why/771321.md?page=4)