# No French location adjectives as surnames? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 20, 2006, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122 "2006-11-20T08:36:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/1 "2006-11-20T08:36:43Z")
We were watching 1 vs. 100, recently, and there was a question regarding salads, to wit, Which of the following salads is not named after a person? 1. Nicoise 2. Cobb 3. and I don’t remember this one but it sounded like it, too, could have been a person’s name. I guessed number 1, Nicoise, and it turned out to be correct. I based my guess on the fact that, in two years of high school and college French, and among all the French people I had ever met or heard of, I had not once come across a civic adjective being used as a surname. There are apparently no people with names like “Parisien” or “Lyonnais”–or are there? I wonder why some languages have worked differently in this regard. German seems to have city-based surnames, like Koellner and Hamburger, but English doesn’t as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/2 "2006-11-20T08:41:15Z")
How about “Glasgow” and “Welsh” in English? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/3 "2006-11-20T08:49:43Z")
You have me there. Of course we have to exclude cities that were named after people. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/4 "2006-11-20T08:52:12Z")
Henri de [Toulouse](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse)-Lautrec ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/5 "2006-11-20T08:53:36Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] … I wonder why some languages have worked differently in this regard. German seems to have city-based surnames, like Koellner and Hamburger, but English doesn’t as far as I know. [/QUOTE] Er, what about George Washington? Abraham Lincoln? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/6 "2006-11-20T09:02:13Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] There are apparently no people with names like “Parisien” or “Lyonnais”–or are there? [/QUOTE] Perhaps not, but there are people with surnames like (hypothetical examples) _Mangetout du Pont Neuf de Paris_ or _Mangetout de Lyon_ ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/7 "2006-11-20T13:58:43Z")
[QUOTE=Walloon] Henri de [Toulouse](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse)-Lautrec [/QUOTE] I meant using the adjective specifically, not “de” plus the place name. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/8 "2006-11-20T17:26:38Z")
French does have these names. “Bourguignon” is an example. I’m also under the impression that Pariseau and its variants signify “Parisian,” which is a way of saying that there are probably lots of French names that don’t read on first impression as references to a town, but which on deeper inspection turn out to be. I have a book on the subject at home. I’ll have a look into it later. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/9 "2006-11-20T17:29:12Z")
And also, because I can’t leave well enough alone, “Parisien” and “Lyonnais” seem to be bonafide French surnames. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/10 "2006-11-20T17:43:46Z")
I have heard more than once of the surname Rouen. ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/11 "2006-11-20T18:45:57Z")
Parise, Parize, Parisy, Parizy, Parisel, Parisel, Pariset, Parizet, Parisot, Parizot. That’s only for Paris. French surnames from localities are many. Just search _Dictionnaire étymologique des noms de famille_ by Marie-Thérèse Morlet ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/12 "2006-11-20T18:57:12Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] German seems to have city-based surnames, like Koellner and Hamburger, but English doesn’t as far as I know. [/QUOTE] Carlisle is an exception. There are plenty of surnames which draw from smaller towns and villages, or from common generic placenames (I’ve got one of the latter). ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/13 "2006-11-20T19:04:45Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] I wonder why some languages have worked differently in this regard. German seems to have city-based surnames, like Koellner and Hamburger, **but English doesn’t as far as I know**. [/QUOTE] 😕 English has loads of them, I would think. London, Stratford, York, Lancaster, Manchester, Sheffield, Hull, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Cat\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Jones)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/14 "2006-11-20T19:20:04Z")
I think the problem here is that in general place name surnames tend to come from smaller places so outsiders are less likely to recognise them as such. English surnames from my home county - Mansfield, Hucknall & Sutton Of French surnames I drove past recently Chirac is probably the only one you’d recognise. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/15 "2006-11-20T20:44:51Z")
And then there’s my buddy Joe Alsace-Lorraine. Of course, sometimes he insists that he’s German. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/16 "2006-11-20T20:48:41Z")
[QUOTE=Gymnopithys] Parise, Parize, Parisy, Parizy, Parisel, Parisel, Pariset, Parizet, Parisot, Parizot. That’s only for Paris. French surnames from localities are many. [/QUOTE] Any chance that the English surname Parish/Parrish is associated with the city of Paris? The obvious link would be to church parishes … but maybe it could be the city? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/17 "2006-11-20T20:49:42Z")
[QUOTE=Cat Jones] English surnames from my home county - Mansfield, Hucknall & Sutton [/QUOTE] One of those is the very generic one I was hinting at earlier, which cannot be pinned down to a single place 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/18 "2006-11-20T20:53:00Z")
[QUOTE=bordelond] Any chance that the English surname Parish/Parrish is associated with the city of Paris? The obvious link would be to church parishes … but maybe it could be the city? [/QUOTE] Googling offers an origin with the Parisii tribe of Anglo-Saxons. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/19 "2006-11-20T20:54:11Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Googling offers an origin with the Parisii tribe of Anglo-Saxons. [/QUOTE] …and without hitting ‘submit’ too early, this means there’s a shared origin of ‘Parish’ and ‘Paris’, but they evolved independently. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122/20 "2006-11-21T14:35:45Z")
[QUOTE=Gymnopithys] Parise, Parize, Parisy, Parizy, Parisel, Parisel, Pariset, Parizet, Parisot, Parizot. That’s only for Paris. French surnames from localities are many. Just search _Dictionnaire étymologique des noms de famille_ by Marie-Thérèse Morlet [/QUOTE] I went home and looked at the book I have on the subject (_Les noms de familles et leurs secrets_, by Jean-Louis Beaucarnot), and he says this is not the case. He says these names (Parisot and variants) are all derived from and are deformations of the given name Patrice. His argument is that during the period when surnames were being adopted, many people came to Paris, but few left. So “Parisian” as a distinguisher left something to be desired, since in Paris everyone was a Parisian, and few from Paris left for another city, still less for the countryside. This argument may seem implausible, but there’s a very definite tendency for French surnames to be derived from or identical to given or saints’ names. Beaucarnot gives a list of the 100 most common surnames in France, and in the top 10, there’s only one name (Petit) that isn’t also a given name. You’ll see names like Martin, Thomas, Bernard, etc. I’m going from memory here, but it looks like the four big categories are: 1) given names, as above; 2) descriptors (Petit, Larousse, Brunet, Leblanc); 3) occupations (Fournier, Lefebvre); and names of foreign derivation (Garcia, Lopez, Meyer). The OP is wrong in an absolute sense, in that adjectival references to place names _do_ exist as French surnames – but it has to be said that these names are not particularly common. In the top 100, I saw (on a somewhat cursory examination) only one: Picard, and it was in the 80-something place. There may be one or two other non-adjectival place references (for instance, Fontaine), but again, as a category, it’s a small one. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-french-location-adjectives-as-surnames/381122.md?page=2)