# No fucking Slavery Reparations for you! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 14, 2002, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791 "2002-08-14T03:33:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/81 "2002-08-14T22:29:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > **I think you underestimate the power of money there, Olent. Typical, for a commie. šŸ˜‰** How do you say ā€œBite meā€ in Dutch? šŸ˜ƒ > [@](#): > > **I think even a lot of pretty emancipated, well behaved and downright righteous white folk will get mightily pissed off that their black neighbour is getting money from the gummint all of a sudden.** Not if other white (and black) folk actually make an effort to argue with them as to why reparations should be supported, and why they should actively involve themselves in the fight for those reparations. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/82 "2002-08-14T22:31:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Olentzero \* > \*\ ***Zev** - with all due respect, show me what you got on that point. \*\* According to [this](http://www.remember.org/guide/History.root.modern.html) site, racial antisemitism (which the Nazi espoused, as opposed to religious or economic) began back in the late 19th century. The [Aish Hatorah report](http://www.aish.com/seminars/whythejews/yjd05600.htm) on ā€œWhy the Jewsā€ states that studies were done in 1911 on whether or not a ā€œJewish noseā€ exists. Both of these events are clearly before the concentration camps opened. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/83 "2002-08-14T22:39:44Z")
Hmmm. I guess you have a lot more faith in people than I do, Olentzero. Oh, and that would be _ā€œZak in de strontā€_, for example. Meaning: ā€œsubmerge in shitā€. Heh. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/84 "2002-08-14T22:48:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > \*\* > > Shit ā€¦ Iā€™m French AND Germanā€¦does that mean I have to pay myself? Iā€™m also Irish, Scottish, Welsh, part Amerind (seems as good a word as anything else to use), Prussianā€¦ > > Er, nix that last bit. I donā€™t wanna hafta pay you, **Guin** šŸ˜‰ > \*\* Tell ya what, _tovarish_, the next time youā€™re in da 'Burgh, let me know, and weā€™ll go out and get something to eat. You pay for dinner, Iā€™ll pay for dessert. Then weā€™re even for that whole Franco-Prussian war thingy. Deal? ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/85 "2002-08-14T23:02:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Olentzero \* > So I was off in attributing it to Lincoln, but there were actual attempts at giving freedmen land (up to 40 acres) and farm animals as reparations for slavery. Thanks, was quite interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/86 "2002-08-15T00:38:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > \*\*Shit ā€¦ Iā€™m French AND Germanā€¦does that mean I have to pay myself? \*\* Iā€™m in the same boat. Iā€™ve got the Polish part that needs reparations from the German part, the Slavic part wants them from the Turkish part. And donā€™t even get me started on the Gypsy part ā€¦ I think i should hire a lawyer to defend myself from myself. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/87 "2002-08-15T01:16:28Z")
If weā€™re going to calculate reparations, letā€™s calculate them correctly. Damages (apart from punitive damages) are usually calculated based on the harm suffered by an individual. The idea is to put the victim back in the position he or she would have been had the injury not occurred. Per the U.S. census, the median household income for Black families in the U.S. is about $30,500. The average income per household member is about $15,000. These people are only here because their ancestors were kidnapped from Africa and enslaved. Their descendants would otherwise, have grown up in West Africa. The average annual per capita income in Senegal, one of the more prosperous West African countries, is $1600. So, that means that every U.S. citizen descended from slaves ought to be entitled to, err, nothing at all. It seems, at least in economic terms, that the biggest beneficiaries of the slave trade alive today are the descendants of slaves. This all goes to demonstrate the utter silliness of the entire idea of reparations. Yes, slavery was, and is, a horrific thing. But it does not follow that the descendants of slaves are either morally or legally entitled to compensation for injuries that occurred almost 150 years ago. If you ask me, weā€™d be way ahead of the game if we could address the problems we have _now_. By the way, **Olentzero** , there is no monolithic reparations movement. Itā€™s simply wrong to suggest that some people arenā€™t arguing for direct government payments like those that were paid to the Japanese-American internees. Hereā€™s a somewhat more, ahh, extreme take on the reparations issue. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/424984.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/424984.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/88 "2002-08-15T01:46:05Z")
One reason I would oppose the paying of reparations is that we donā€™t know where it would end. If we paid reparations today to every individual whose ancestors had been enslaved in this country, would that ensure that their children, their grandchildren, etc., would not also think THEY were entitled to payments? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/89 "2002-08-15T01:53:00Z")
Olentzero: I had a really good post earlier that was lost when I had to attend to some more pressing stuff, so Iā€™m sorry I wonā€™t address your points as eloquently as I might have before. First of all, labelling me as a racist based upon your observations in this thread is a little bit inappropriate. I am generally against the culture of victimization, regardless of whatever form it takes. As I was going to ask, does the statute of limitations apply to this sort of thing? What about the idea that you canā€™t be sued or prosecuted for breaking a law that was written after you took the action that broke it. I believe in acting on the problems of today, not the problems of yesterday. Focus on fixing the problems. The roots are always going to be there regardless. But perhaps we can keep the weed from growing, rather than planting more seeds of hate by taking money from every American and giving it to Black Americans descended from slaves. Another question I have is why do people who believe in reparations insist on adding 150 years to the duration of african slavery on this continent? 1619 - 1865 is 246 years. So why does everyone keep quoting 400 years? Whatā€™s that all about? Is that some implication that it is still occurring? Iā€™ve seen too many people say it for it to be just a general error. Modern day racism is a problem, but as I said in my OP perhaps joining together with all other races in a similar situation to yours would do more to end racism than asking for reparations. I donā€™t have any stats on this, but Iā€™d be willing to bet there are more white people living in poverty than there are black people in poverty. However conversely, I realize that in levels of percentages there are a higher percentage of affluent white people than there are affluent black people, but thatā€™s changing rapidly. There are a lot of very wealthy black people out there these days. As far as the Black slaves suffering more from this country, Iā€™d have to argue with you on that. Iā€™d say that Aboriginal Americans suffered quite a bit more than Black slaves. History is a long story of people fucking each other over, and eventually the victims have to give accept that and work to better themselves in the here and now, or else they can live as second class citizens complaining about it and asking for feel good measures to be passed. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/90 "2002-08-15T01:59:39Z")
This is so fucking crazy. That BBC article is pretty extreme. I wonder what would happen if they got a counter offer saying weā€™d consider reparations if they first came up with the money to pack back all the slave traders that bought slaves from Africans in Africa. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/91 "2002-08-15T02:51:50Z")
I donā€™t get it. I just donā€™t get it. First a little background on me. I am from a Caribbean nation where slavery existed until after it was abolished in the US. Even when there is discrimination on the basis of races in this country I wouldnā€™t go too far and call it racism, mostly because it is of another sort of that which exists in Europe and mostly in the US. Nobody, has EVER been killed here for being of a certain race. People just kill people for a variety of reasons, none has to do with race. I come from a mixed-race family (whatever that is). Dad is white, mom, like me is of mixed. My country, as a whole, has been at one time or another invaded or controlled by a number of nations, the US included. The latest times the US marines paid us a visit was in 1965. Even when it was in fairly recent times my country has grown over it. The past is the past. I cannot claim to understand the struggle of the black people of the US. I cannot understand what they go through. But I have the feeling (and so does a lot of people from outside the US) that there is a lot of self-inflicted victimization in it. Past the obligatory joke of ā€œI am half black, half white. Do I write a check to myself?ā€ I have no words to explain how utterly silly I think the whole issue of ā€œreparationā€ is. I think it would be a lot healthier to just come to terms with the past and move on. But again, there might be some twist to the whole thing that I am missing. Iā€™ll hang around and see if I get the point I think I am missing. My 0.33 cents (of Pesos that is) Back to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/92 "2002-08-15T03:09:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Nobody, has EVER been killed here for being of a certain race. In modern times that is. Sorry for the brain hiccup :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/93 "2002-08-15T03:50:33Z")
> [@](#): > > But just giving every African American some money doesnā€™t rectify the current situation of racial inequality: if anything, it will aggravate it. > > In fact, if I were a black American, Iā€™d consider this approach a slap in the face. It completely ignores current racist patterns, does nothing to improve socio-economic status for blacks in the long run, and looks like a fucking buy-out out of the guilt of a nation. Guilt for which no individual can currently be held responsible. Interestingly, there are several members of the political Right in the U.S. who are supporting reparations (notably, Charles Krauthammer). In my (perhaps cynical, but I believe accurate) summary of their position, they say, ā€œSure. Give them the reparations. Every black household in the U.S. will receive $x0,000 and they can spend it however they need to. Then we can kill all the civil rights legislation, affirmative action, and outreach programs and tell them to shut up and get on with their lives.ā€ Of course, while that money would be a genuine boon to most middle class blacks and a few poor blacks, Krauthammer and company carefully (I believe deliberately) ignore that the majority of the truly poor blacks, hamstrung by the failure of our educational systems, will lose that money through bad investments and scams. But, Hey! they got their money; they have to go away and quit bugging us. Reparations are unworkable at so many levels and the support of such people as Krauthammer should be a wake-up call to the advocates of reparations. If we want a more just society, we need to address the inequities in the current society, not dream up feel-good gestures that are both expensive and counter-productive. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/94 "2002-08-15T04:18:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mighty\_Girl \* > \*\*In modern times that is. Sorry for the brain hiccup :rolleyes: \*\* So what exactly happened to James Byrd and Amadou Diallo? ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/95 "2002-08-15T04:24:19Z")
Sorry, I had somehow missed that you werenā€™t talking about the US. I still think youā€™re terribly wrong to claim > [@](#): > > But I have the feeling (and so does a lot of people from outside the US) that there is a lot of self-inflicted victimization in it. People donā€™t _want_ to be discriminated against. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/96 "2002-08-15T06:11:34Z")
Grendel: I disagree with you completely. Lotā€™s of people want to believe they are a victim, it takes away the onus of personal responsibility. It makes their problems ā€œexternalā€ I know a lot of very successful black people, people who are very together and who can be very formidable and even intimidating at times. These are people who donā€™t blaim everyone else for their problems, they found solutions to them, through ingenuity and self-examination. On the other hand you have scores living in the ghetto smoking pot all day and blaming ā€œthe Manā€. A friend of mine has a Philosophy Degree from the University of Louisiana and he said his peers from HS in LA make fun of him for it. That said, I forget who James Byrd is, but Amadou Diallou was a black man who was unarmed, was tagged for arrest by an undercover, and when he resisted thinking it was some kind of scam was shot to death here in New York City about two years ago. I think thatā€™s the right case. Either that or heā€™s the immigrant who was shot 41 times by police officers when he reached into his back pocket to get his wallet to present identification. Anyway, there are so many cases of this type in New York that I lose count. This is definitely something that needs to be addressed. Too bad they fall on the back burner while every kvetches about reparations. Or else people will go through a perfectly cogent argument about the societal ills brought upon by slavery upon black America and then suddenly mention Amadou Diallo out of left field as though it is so obvious that an issue that has nothing to do with slavery is a direct result of slavery. Erek ---
**Author:** ![occ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8c91f0/32.png) [@occ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/occ)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/97 "2002-08-15T06:15:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grendel72 \* > \*\*So what exactly happened to James Byrd and Amadou Diallo? \*\* If you read her post, youā€™ll see that she wasnā€™t referring to the US, but to an unnamed country in the Caribbean. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/98 "2002-08-15T07:44:19Z")
and the award for the most useless post in the thread goes to occ! Erek ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/99 "2002-08-15T13:06:27Z")
Thank you, Coldfire, for qualifying your statement. ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791/100 "2002-08-15T14:43:53Z")
It seems to me that there are two arguments. One is ā€œThese business profited by immoral activities that injured my ancestors.ā€ I saw no evidence of this argument in the article cited in the OP. However, if that is the argument, then one can only claim theyā€™re suing for damaged done to a deceased relative. The companies were not the cause of slavery or racial injustice, their actions and operations took place in a pre-existing condition of immoral behavior. They can not be held accountable for creating or perpetuating that situation. Thus the argument that todays racial issues stem directly from slavery are not applicable to a lawsuit brough against corporations that may or may not have profited from the institution of slavery. The argument that ā€œAfrican Americans are owed reparations because the institution of slavery is the direct cause of todays racial division and injustices, and has kept Blacks in a separate and inequal status from 1865 until todayā€ is the position that I read in the article. So they are seeking reparations from those who perpetuated the institution of slavery; namely the government of the United States. However, our government is representative of all current citizens. Taking money from the government is equivalent to taking money from all citizens of the country today, be they white or black, regardless of where or how their ancestors came to this country. It does nothing to address the injustices committed on the long dead by the long dead. It is not justice. Malcolm X said we (present tense) inherited this debt in much the same way as some one inherits the debt of their father. Well, we inherited the institution of slavery from our days of colonial government under another culture. The United States government has been working these past 150 years to right the wrong we inherited. Yet, that fact is ignored. For 150 years now this country has fought to eradicate the bigotry and hatred it inherited from another culture, yet those efforts are conveniently forgotten. We have made huge progress towards racial equality, and we struggle towards it daily. Do problems still exist? I canā€™t deny they do, but look at the scale. Whites have fought along side blacks in every-growing numbers to help create a society that is blind to race. When will those efforts be recognized? Why must it always be about the slaveholders that existed in 1850? For those who donā€™t believe itā€™s devisive, look at the language of the article itself: > [@](#): > > the many shades of black, each reflecting on life as a Negro in America and its relationship to the unpunished crime and legacy of slavery. Who is to be punished? > [@](#): > > In a city where polls indicate that 62 percent of black New Yorkers feel reparations are justified but only 22 percent of whites agreeā€¦ Black vs. whiteā€¦ > [@](#): > > Itā€™s about slavery, an old tune that White America is tired of hearing and Black America is tired of having to sing. Ahh, now we are two nationsā€¦more black vs white. Personally, I donā€™t want to be lumped in with [color] America. Iā€™d rather just be American. Why canā€™t we all just get along? > [@](#): > > ā€œIt would be nice to have white people admit the truth of our existence here.ā€ [says Ruby Drake] How many white people are denying ā€˜the truth of [their] existenceā€™? All? Some? Does it matter? Will anyone count? Or is it simpler to leave it a question of white versus black, based purely on race? But, wasnā€™t that what we wanted to avoid? > [@](#): > > The issue of reparations has been called divisive by many who oppose it Indeed. One has only to read this article to understand why. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-fucking-slavery-reparations-for-you/123791.md?page=6)