# No, getting a job or school admission through AA does not show one is unqualified for it **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2015, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560 "2015-05-22T01:14:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/21 "2015-05-22T14:36:01Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > [Here](http://seaphe.org/pdf/whathappensafter.pdf)is a study on the effects of Affirmative Action from Duke which is a highly competitive school. It does not list GPA’s of incoming freshmen but it does list SAT scores. The average Asian has an SAT score in the 98 percentile, the average White has one in the 96th percentile, the average Hispanic has one in the 94th percentile and the average Black has one in the 89th percentile. The 89th percentile for the ACT is almost 28. So half the black admissions to Duke had a test score equivalent to less than 28. I wonder how much of Duke’s numbers are a combination of statistical anomoly (a low number of black students overall + a fairly high number of those students on basketball scholarships where grades are less important than making three pointers and being able to dunk). Duke has about 1700 students per class. About 10% of them are African American/Black, meaning that in your average class 170 students are black. If some of them are being admitted not because they are Black, or because they have good test scores, but because of their athletic ability, that isn’t affirmative action, that’s a whole different deal - and I think possibly more problematic than affirmative action. And that could be sufficient to swing the median. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/22 "2015-05-22T14:37:47Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Well, when you’ve seen very bright white guys get denied admission to an Ivy League school and a less-bright African-American guy magically get accepted . . . And you know that happens how? > [@Stringbean](#): > > In other words, if you are a proponent of Affirmative Action, that’s fine. But don’t pretend it represents the Meritocracy that we all idealize for this country. It was always meant to be a temporary means to an end: equality of opportunity. When we have reached that point . . . Well, we ain’t anywhere near it yet, are we? ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/23 "2015-05-22T14:41:13Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > As in 99% of AA complainers’ cases, his post is his cite… Where am I complaining? **monstro** said it was “ludicrous” that someone obtaining a degree would be unqualified. I just don’t find it ludicrous. Do you think grade inflation does not happen? Provide a cite for that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/24 "2015-05-22T14:52:19Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Maybe there aren’t dumbed-down exams, but there are still ways to manipulate GPAs, at least in grad school. One example I personally saw in grad school was black student on a minority scholarship who received D’s in senior level undergraduate classes (which counted for grad school). You had to maintain a 3.0 as a grad student and couldn’t go more than a semester (maybe two, I can’t recall) with a below 3.0 GPA without being put on academic probation and then dismissed if no improvement. > > This student was given a 6 credit “Special Research Project” which was basically the literature review for his thesis, something he had to write anyway. His adviser graded it and gave him an A to boost his GPA. How do you know he got in on a minority scholarship? How are you privy to what his grades were? How do you know why he was given this special project, and how do you know he was given the “A” not because he deserved it, but because his advisor wanted to boost his GPA? (His _advisor_ graded his paper?) After all these shenanigans supposedly happened, did you report them to anybody? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/25 "2015-05-22T14:54:05Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Where am I complaining? **monstro** said it was “ludicrous” that someone obtaining a degree would be unqualified. I just don’t find it ludicrous. Do you think grade inflation does not happen? Provide a cite for that. Nobody said that, but I think **Monstro’s** point was that once you’re admitted to a school, your AA/non-AA status isn’t known to the professors, so if you manage to graduate at that point, it’s in spite of whatever AA status you may or may not have had. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/26 "2015-05-22T15:02:16Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I wonder how much of Duke’s numbers are a combination of statistical anomoly (a low number of black students overall + a fairly high number of those students on basketball scholarships where grades are less important than making three pointers and being able to dunk). > > Duke has about 1700 students per class. About 10% of them are African American/Black, meaning that in your average class 170 students are black. If some of them are being admitted not because they are Black, or because they have good test scores, but because of their athletic ability, that isn’t affirmative action, that’s a whole different deal - and I think possibly more problematic than affirmative action. And that could be sufficient to swing the median. Duke basketball gets 13 total scholarships for each team. 5 current players are white. That leaves 8 players, 3 freshman, 2 sophomore, 2 juniors and 1 senior. Football has 85 scholarship and about 50 of those are black players. Red shirting is very popular so each class has about 10 football players. That would leave an average of around 15 black athletes on scholarship per class. Does not seem enough to swing the median that much. The majority of athletes at Duke are white, just not in the money sports. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/27 "2015-05-22T15:04:03Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Nobody said that, but I think **Monstro’s** point was that once you’re admitted to a school, your AA/non-AA status isn’t known to the professors, so if you manage to graduate at that point, it’s in spite of whatever AA status you may or may not have had. Depending on the class size almost all of your professors will no your race and they can then know if your affirmative action or not. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/28 "2015-05-22T15:06:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How do you know he got in on a minority scholarship? How are you privy to what his grades were? How do you know why he was given this special project, and how do you know he was given the “A” not because he deserved it, but because his advisor wanted to boost his GPA? (His _advisor_ graded his paper?) After all these shenanigans supposedly happened, did you report them to anybody? I know these things because we were in the same lab and had the same adviser. His scholarship status was publicly on the department’s website. My office had our computer in it and he left his letter to the grad school pleading his probation case open on it and I saw it when I sat down to use it. I didn’t report it because is it really shenanigans? The student, grad school, grad program, and adviser all signed off on it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/29 "2015-05-22T15:06:06Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Depending on the class size almost all of your professors will no your race and they can then know if your affirmative action or not. How? For that matter, back to your story, how did _you_ know that status of that student? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/30 "2015-05-22T15:07:06Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > That would leave an average of around 15 black athletes on scholarship per class. Does not seem enough to swing the median that much. Or at all, or possibly even the other way, if the white student-athletes on scholarship are also more athlete than student. There’s certainly AA at the big-time sports schools, it’s just on the basis of athletic talent rather than race. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/31 "2015-05-22T15:18:01Z")
Race-alone AA (to take one kind) means that two standards are held: a lesser one for an underrepresented group, and another for others. If you need AA to be accepted, it means you are less qualified, but not necessarily unqualified, for admission or for a job. It is often advanced that the reason you are less qualified relates directly to diminished opportunity, but this is an incorrect assertion. The idea of race-based AA is to balance representation by race; not balance by opportunity. A highly privileged person may benefit from race-based AA over a poorly privileged person. The overarching purpose is to balance us by groups at a society level. It is not to be “fair” for any given individual. At elite schools, at least, most race-based AA is extended to highly privileged candidates. Those are the ones with the highest admission profiles compared with others in that race group, even if they are lower than the profiles of their SES peers. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/32 "2015-05-22T15:18:06Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Maybe there aren’t dumbed-down exams, but there are still ways to manipulate GPAs, at least in grad school. One example I personally saw in grad school was black student on a minority scholarship who received D’s in senior level undergraduate classes (which counted for grad school). You had to maintain a 3.0 as a grad student and couldn’t go more than a semester (maybe two, I can’t recall) with a below 3.0 GPA without being put on academic probation and then dismissed if no improvement. > > This student was given a 6 credit “Special Research Project” which was basically the literature review for his thesis, something he had to write anyway. His adviser graded it and gave him an A to boost his GPA. > > Just food for thought. At Duke the report I referenced earlier said that by the senior year 41% of grades given are As. The median grade given at Harvard is an A-. Across the country As and Bs maken up 78% of grades given in college. Only 5 percent of grades given are Fs. If you show up and do the work in most colleges you will graduate. Another way to manipulate GPAs are steering students into easy majors. The Duke study I mentioned says that although blacks are more likely than whites to express interest in studying STEM fields, after enrollment weaker students are likely to change majors to the humanities and black students are much more likely than whites to get a degree in the humanities vs the sciences. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/33 "2015-05-22T15:29:18Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > … > If you can find examples of students getting into these very competitive colleges with 3.2 GPAs and 28 ACT scores, I’d love to hear about them. 11% of [Harvard Business School](http://www.mbadataguru.com/blog/admissions/harvard-gpa-acceptance-rate/) applicants with a GPA between 3.00 and 3.19 are admitted. The linked study does not correlate GPA with test scores. Perhaps fewer people with such lower GPAs apply, but it seems some are admitted. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/34 "2015-05-22T15:52:07Z")
Back at the dawn of time I posted[this about affirmative action](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8932488&postcount=21) in school admissions. I still think that simply going by GPA and SAT scores is the wrong approach to admissions. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/35 "2015-05-22T16:03:27Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Where am I complaining? **monstro** said it was “ludicrous” that someone obtaining a degree would be unqualified. I just don’t find it ludicrous. Do you think grade inflation does not happen? Provide a cite for that. I am sure we all have stories of classmates receiving special help from professors, because academia is no more free from unequal treatment as any other institution. To whit, I had a classmate in grad school who got caught plagiarizing and wasn’t penalized for it except for public humiliation. I can imagine things working out differently if my black ass had been caught cheating, but who knows? Maybe the prof had a soft heart for everyone. If you have evidence that AA beneficiaries, as a group, are less capable after graduation than non-AA beneficiaries, as a group, I would be interested in checking it out. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/36 "2015-05-22T16:10:27Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Depending on the class size almost all of your professors will no your race and they can then know if your affirmative action or not. Not every minority student is an AA admission. That’s the fallacy. There are, believe it or not, minority students who excel academically and get in (and get scholarships, etc…) on their own merits without any consideration of race. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/37 "2015-05-22T16:32:44Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Not every minority student is an AA admission. That’s the fallacy. There are, believe it or not, minority students who excel academically and get in (and get scholarships, etc…) on their own merits without any consideration of race. Exactly. I will cop to being an AA student for undergrad. I don’t know this for a fact, but I’m guessing I was. But not for grad school. My credentials were just as, if not more, impressive than the other doctoral candidates, including GREs. Just because I stuck out like sore thumb does not mean that AA got me in the door. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/38 "2015-05-22T16:34:10Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If you have evidence that AA beneficiaries, as a group, are less capable after graduation than non-AA beneficiaries, as a group, I would be interested in checking it out. In the field of medicine, the difference between black applicants and other groups is profound, and remains so into higher levels of training and the physician workplace itself. Specifically, at the front end, admitting standards are markedly lower as a way of affirmatively admitting by race; this is the standard practice from elite schools all the way down to medical HBCUs. At the end of med school training, standardized scores are still much lower (as they were at college admission; as they were at med school admission). This means fewer blacks go on into specialized residencies. If you were to follow the process all the way through to subspecialties, what you would see is a persistent drop out so that by the time final board certifications are administered, the ratio of successful blacks at that level is markedly lower than at admission to med school. Finally, out in clinical practice, the disciplinary rate for black physicians over others has been [reported to be as high as ten times.](http://articles.courant.com/2003-06-30/news/0306300419_1_medical-schools-disciplinary-actions-top-students/4) _“A Courant analysis of disciplinary actions against doctors nationwide found, however, that both Howard and Meharry produce troubled doctors more frequently than most other schools – at rates about 10 times greater than the schools with the lowest numbers. The actions ranged from a simple citation to permanent license revocation for a range of misdeeds including medical incompetence, ethical lapses and criminal behavior.”_ If you were to take other fields–particularly the STEM fields–you would find similar outcomes of generally weaker average performance on any standardized evaluations and a general perception that AA-based hirees are weaker. Another practical example would be the New Haven Connecticut firefighters who took the advancement exam. In that famous case (Ricci v DeStefano) the pass rate was abysmally lower for the black candidates already hired as firefighters but now expected to take an additional advancement exam. Even with the same material, the same current job etc etc, their performance was markedly worse, on average. For academia, you might also want to look at what happens to students preferentially admitted into college when they then want to go into Law or Engineering. As those screening exams are administered, the poor performance rate is much higher, so after graduation from college, the overall outcome is far lower for AA matriculants than for their non-AA peers. I strongly support AA, but I think the idea that once passed over a (lowered) bar, students and employees then somehow get elevated up to average is a significant misconception. It doesn’t happen in school and the workplace anymore than it would happen if we decided the NBA needed more representation by whites and asians, and once AA’d into the NBA, they’d be just as good as the players whose place they took. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/39 "2015-05-22T16:54:59Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I am sure we all have stories of classmates receiving special help from professors, because academia is no more free from unequal treatment as any other institution. To whit, I had a classmate in grad school who got caught plagiarizing and wasn’t penalized for it except for public humiliation. I can imagine things working out differently if my black ass had been caught cheating, but who knows? Maybe the prof had a soft heart for everyone. > > If you have evidence that AA beneficiaries, as a group, are less capable after graduation than non-AA beneficiaries, as a group, I would be interested in checking it out. [Here](http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB118792252575507571)is an article about a study that shows only 45% Black graduates of law school pass the bar exam on their first try as opposed to 78% of white. Only 57% of Black law school graduates ever pass the Bar exam. [Here](http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/reports/2007/R3481.pdf)is an old article examining affirmative action in medical school that says that 50% of black doctors become board certified while 80% of white doctors become board certified. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560/40 "2015-05-22T16:56:30Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Not every minority student is an AA admission. That’s the fallacy. There are, believe it or not, minority students who excel academically and get in (and get scholarships, etc…) on their own merits without any consideration of race. Not everyone is but since the vast majority are and there is no way of knowing who is and who isn’t most people just assume that any particular black student is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-getting-a-job-or-school-admission-through-aa-does-not-show-one-is-unqualified-for-it/720560.md?page=3)