# No, Hollywood. "EVP" is NOT a "real life phenomenon" (lame and futile) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 20, 2004, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735 "2004-12-20T03:43:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/41 "2005-01-03T03:33:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > My impression of _The Blair Witch Project_: > > “Where’s the fucking map?” > > “I don’t KNOW where the fucking map is, you tell me!” > > “I can’t believe you fucking got us lost. This is fucking bullshit!” > > “I’m not the one who got us lost. You’re the one who lost the fucking map!” > > “I didn’t lose the fucking map, YOU lost the fucking map!” > Repeat for two hours. It’s like being on vacation with my wife. The ‘woods’ around Burkittsville, MD, are about one mile by eight. How the FUCK can anyone get lost in that? Stupid movie. ---
**Author:** ![butter\_pie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aca169/32.png) [@butter\_pie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butter_pie)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/42 "2005-01-03T04:44:44Z")
[quote] No. Actually, there are not. [quote] I’m sorry. I didn’t realize you were the ultimate authority who got to decide the subjects that “real” scientists study. My mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/43 "2005-01-03T04:56:41Z")
I’m just stating a fact. I’m not “deciding” anything. Scientists do not study “ghosts” just like they don’t study werwolves. There’s nothing to study. ---
**Author:** ![butter\_pie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aca169/32.png) [@butter\_pie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butter_pie)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/44 "2005-01-03T05:09:11Z")
Whatever you say. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/45 "2005-01-03T05:21:26Z")
**Diogenes the Cynic** , you make a great point regarding “ghost.” As yet undefined. There are many theories, one of which establishes a ghost as a disembodied spirit or soul of a dead person. Other guesses: “psychic” recordings, atmospheric phenomena, hallucination. So why do the guys on Ghost Hunters talk to “ghosts?” They’re assuming a lot I think. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/46 "2005-01-03T05:25:36Z")
> [@jinwicked](#): > > Whatever you say. I actually have to dog in this fight because I believe that EVP is a hoax but on the other hand, the movie previews don’t piss me off either. I pretty much don’t care one way or another, but, I would like a cite showing a legitimate scientific field that studies ghosts, EVP, werewolves, Bigfoot, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/47 "2005-01-03T05:32:08Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > **Diogenes the Cynic** , you make a great point regarding “ghost.” > As yet undefined. There are many theories, one of which establishes a ghost as a disembodied spirit or soul of a dead person. Other guesses: “psychic” recordings, atmospheric phenomena, hallucination. With all due respect, those are not scientific theories. A theory must make falsifiable predictions. The words “spirit” and “soul” are just as meaningless and undefined as “ghost.” They are scientifically null terms. “psychic” explanations are just as null. The word “psychic” has no scientific meaning. Atmospheric phenomena and hallucinations are genuine hyptheses which could explain a mysterious event or occurrence but they are not a theory of _ghosts_ as such. > [@](#): > > So why do the guys on Ghost Hunters talk to “ghosts?” They’re assuming a lot I think. I’m not familiar with this show. Are they some sort of “ghostbuster” types. What is their act exactly? Do they pretend to investigate or exorcise haunted houses or something? ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/48 "2005-01-03T05:33:09Z")
Reminds me of a promo for a show someone is airing about hauntings. The “expert scientist” is walking around with a magnetic field detector. He explains that during sightings, magnetic field activity is elevated or some such. How many people happen to have a MFD in their pocket when they come across a “ghost?” Can someone please ask him that? Please? ---
**Author:** ![butter\_pie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aca169/32.png) [@butter\_pie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butter_pie)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/49 "2005-01-03T05:41:25Z")
I have to finish some work tonight, but on a quick Google search I found this: [http://www.fims.uwo.ca/olr/apr1502/ghosts.html](http://www.fims.uwo.ca/olr/apr1502/ghosts.html) Those sorts of programs and cases are fairly common from my reading. My whole point is that there are a lot of people researching ghost and ghost phenomena (along with other subjects like EVP and UFOs) who don’t necessarily make claims whether or not these things are real. They are trying to find the causes of these things people experience and either prove _or_ disprove them. Just because it’s something on the fringes of mainstream science does not de facto illegitimize it. Yeah, there are a lot of nut jobs out there, and people trying to make a buck off gullible believers, but there is also some real research being done. Hell, even our own US military has launched a rather extensive UFO research program, Project Blue Book ([http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/bluebook.htm](http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/bluebook.htm)). I’m not going to bother looking up cites but there were some “real” scientists studying Uri Geller’s claim to be able to bend spoons with his mind. Hell, even James Randi is part of the legitimate study of paranormal fields… he’s encouraging the researchers to use scientific method and produce repeatable results. To say that something does not exist with all certainty just because it hasn’t be proven yet, is just as ignorant as insisting it does with no concrete evidence. To me either position is intellectually arrogant as it assumes you know the be-all end-all of existence. I personally do not have enough evidence of things like ghosts or EVP or UFOs or Bigfoot to either make the claim that they do or do not exist, so I will stay neutral on the subject until I am convinced otherwise. Someone has to be the first to prove something. Don’t believe in it if the evidence isn’t strong enough for you, but don’t unilaterally trash the efforts of the handful of people out there seriously investigating this sort of thing with an eye towards objectivity and just trying to explain the strange phenomena people have been experiencing since the dawn of human history. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/50 "2005-01-03T05:44:57Z")
**DtC** , Big Bang I hope I didn’t come across as possibly buying into any of it! Ghost Hunters is on Sci-Fi Channel(quite fitting huh?) But it’s presented as reality TV. Roto Rooter plumbers by day, ghost hunters by night. They do it all, infrared, EVP, dowsers. I howled at the episode where one guy is surveying the stage of an old theatre. He’s monitoring a camera that’s viewing the stage and practically lays an egg when he spies a slash of light on stage. Now obviously it’s a reflection of a light on the wall bouncing off the wooden floor. But he goes racing off to catch the “ghost” red handed. Eventually somebody clues him in. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/51 "2005-01-03T05:53:32Z")
Sure there are ghosts. I see them all the time. They’re shy, though. They disappear as soon as a live person gets close to the TV. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/52 "2005-01-03T06:10:16Z")
> [@](#): > > **DtC** : I think that Ockham precludes us from going in that direction for the moment because naturalistic, psychiatric explanations can be found for all the phenomenon. Much of it can even be induced in “normal” individuals (as I suspect we both know first hand. I’m just trying to sort through some differences I see in how scientists approach information about such things as “the God response.” There are, of course, “naturalistic” biological explanations for what is happening in the brain and the brain can be artificially stimulated to cause “the God response.” Some scientists tend to make a judgment call by saying that since the sensation can be artificially induced, the altered state is somehow less real. If I am correct, the lead scientist in studying the phenomenon refrains from making that judgment. I get the impression, **DtC** , that you would be in the first group of scientists that I described. Am I mistaken? Also, has science eliminated the possibility that senses beyond the basic five exist? ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/53 "2005-01-03T06:12:48Z")
> [@jinwicked](#): > > IMy whole point is that there are a lot of people researching ghost and ghost phenomena (along with other subjects like EVP and UFOs) who don’t necessarily make claims whether or not these things are real. They are trying to find the causes of these things people experience and either prove _or_ disprove them. I don’t doubt that there are _people_ out there studing these subjects, but I would just like a cite of (your words) “actual scientists who study that sort of thing.” I don’t mean a cite such as James Randi, who isn’t actually “studying” any of these things, but instead studies ways to debunk the bogus claims. I also do not mean the U.S. military study regarding UFOs. There are such things as unidentified flying objects (UFOs) that should be studied, this is not to say they are little green men from Planet X, but things more earthly. What I mean is your legitimate, run of the mill, meat and potatoes, _actual_ (as you stated) scientist. I can’t think of any legitimate scientific field that specifically studies EVP, ghosts, Big Foot, or little green men. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/54 "2005-01-03T06:13:21Z")
With that said, I have to confess that my washing machine keeps saying, “Go away. Go away. Go away. Go away.” ---
**Author:** ![butter\_pie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aca169/32.png) [@butter\_pie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butter_pie)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/55 "2005-01-03T06:36:36Z")
Well, I am not sure exactly what you want, if people with applicable higher education and a scientific background investigating these phenomena are not “real scientist” enough for you. I define scientist by the methods they use, not my judgements on their subject of research. I linked to an article that mentioned a college that has classes on paranormal research. That’s not unusual. I’m not trying to convince you it’s real, I am only defending that there are people doing real research on the subjects and studying it. Even the Skeptic’s Dictionary rarely (never, that I have seen) says that something without a doubt does not exist. It only says “it’s probably this.” I just don’t understand the hostility towards this, especially when there is so much more egregious infringements to science going on like the $25 million Creationism museum mentioned in another thread here. Here’s an example of, I guess, “real” scientists (whatever that means to you) studying paranormal phenomena – the Global Conciousness Project, at Princeton University. It’s basically a study of mass human conciousness/psychic phenomena: [http://noosphere.princeton.edu/](http://noosphere.princeton.edu/) The US military did its own investigation as to the possible validity/application of remote viewing, another psychic phenomena: [http://skepdic.com/remotevw.html](http://skepdic.com/remotevw.html) The article linked there also makes reference to research done in the field by scientists at Stanford Research Institute. Here’s an article about scientists at Coventry University in England investigating (and debunking) a ghost there: [http://www.coventry.ac.uk/cms/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=459&a=2671](http://www.coventry.ac.uk/cms/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=459&a=2671) I would wager you don’t see more “meat and potatoes” scientists (whatever that means) involved in this sort of this is because 1) people rightly, or wrongly, laugh at them, 2) lack of funding because it doesn’t have an immediate financial reward like viagra and cures for baldness, 3) it is an unorthodox area of scientific research, and 3) there are better things to be studying, such as a cure for cancer or global warming. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/56 "2005-01-03T06:49:01Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I’m just trying to sort through some differences I see in how scientists approach information about such things as “the God response.” There are, of course, “naturalistic” biological explanations for what is happening in the brain and the brain can be artificially stimulated to cause “the God response.” Some scientists tend to make a judgment call by saying that since the sensation can be artificially induced, the altered state is somehow less real. If I am correct, the lead scientist in studying the phenomenon refrains from making that judgment. > > I get the impression, **DtC** , that you would be in the first group of scientists that I described. Am I mistaken?. I would say that would have to be the default conclusion so far, barring any _necessity_ for anything else. That’s not to say that something else isn’t possible (science doesn’t say things like that) only that nothing supernatural is _required_ to explain the phenomenon. > [@](#): > > Also, has science eliminated the possibility that senses beyond the basic five exist? No, at least not in a hypthetical sense for other organisms, but you have to be careful with how you define “senses.” Sensory perceptions are _physiological_ methods by which animals interact with and acquire information about their environments. There has to be a material, physical mechanism by which the organsim interacts with its environment in order for it to be properly called a “sense.” ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/57 "2005-01-03T07:01:43Z")
> [@](#): > > **DtC** : There has to be a material, physical mechanism by which the organsim interacts with its environment in order for it to be properly called a “sense.” Understood. So you discount “sense of time” and “sense of direction” or are they just by-products of other senses or…? (Don’t want to sidetrack.) Didn’t Duke University do some paranormal studies in the 1960’s? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/58 "2005-01-03T07:11:57Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Understood. So you discount “sense of time” and “sense of direction” or are they just by-products of other senses or…? (Don’t want to sidetrack.) Those are figures of speech, not literal physical senses. Cognitively speaking they are products of subtle sensory cues and memory, but they are not literal senses in themselves. > [@](#): > > Didn’t Duke University do some paranormal studies in the 1960’s? I believe they did the popularly known experiments with the cards with the symbols on them. This was a case (as has happened occasionally with real scientists) of doing some experiments to determine if any phenomenon was actually there to study but none of the “psychics” were ever able to do any better than random chance. It was the same in the military with “remote viewing,” it’s the same with the “global consciousness” thing. These are forays to determine whether any phenomenon exists which requires an explanation. So far not a single example of any paranormal phenomena has ever been authenticated under labratory conditions. The scientists who _do_ any research into these things do so mainly in order to debunk them, not because they take them seriously. I promise you, “EVP” is not something that’s keeping scientists up at night grasping for explanations. ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/59 "2005-01-03T07:48:24Z")
> [@Master Sparky](#): > > I tried everything I could to explain it away. I couldn’t. I had to accept that there might be something to this phenomena, and so I delved deeper into it. I ditched the camera and started conducting EVP sessions myself. Are there any HAM radio guys in the area? A friend of miene pretty regularly ends up on his own and his neighbor’s television sets. I don’t really know what he’s doing, but sometimes when he transmits the television picks up his voice. Just the other day I was at his house and he was chitchatting with some guy far away and bit and pieces of his conversation started popping into the TV audio in the next room. We let him know and he tweaked something and he disappeared. He said he freaked his neighbors out the first time he did it, and when he appears on his own TV he’s probably on theirs too. YMMV. (HAM radio seems to be an unholy union of incredibly high tech equipment and a smack-in-on-the-side,-maybe-it’ll-work-this-time mentality. It could just be my friend…) Tenebras ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735/60 "2005-01-03T07:51:54Z")
> [@GingerOfTheNorth](#): > > The ‘woods’ around Burkittsville, MD, are about one mile by eight. How the FUCK can anyone get lost in that? Stupid movie. Quickie hijack: They comment on that in the movie. The answer: the supernatural, as in the title of the film. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hollywood-evp-is-not-a-real-life-phenomenon-lame-and-futile/280735.md?page=4)