# No Hugo Chávez Thread? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2006, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562 "2006-09-21T14:38:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/1 "2006-09-21T14:38:54Z")
By now everyone has seen Sr. Chávez’s speech at the UN. Strangely there is no thread on it. Of course it could be because the question that faces this house is simply, “Is President Hugo Chávez whacked or simply off his nut?” He has ruined his bid to get on the Security Council, he has freaked out lots of folks who had been (or could have been) his allies, he has made himself look like an ass. DOes anyone want to stand up for the man and his weird speech? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/2 "2006-09-21T14:51:08Z")
It _was_ nice to see him expose himself in such a manner, wasn’t it? It might have played well back home, but it didn’t do his reputation as a sober, serious statesman any good. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/3 "2006-09-21T14:51:39Z")
[Speech](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10315.htm) in question: > [@](#): > > Friends of the world, this takes us to a sad conclusion: The United Nations has exhausted its model, and it is not all about reform. The XXI century claims deep changes that will only be possible if a new organization is founded. This UN does not work. We have to say it. It is the truth. These transformations – the ones Venezuela is referring to- have, according to us, two phases: The immediate phase and the aspiration phase, a utopia. The first is framed by the agreements that were signed in the old system. We do not run away from them. We even bring concrete proposals in that model for the short term. But the dream of an ever-lasting world peace, the dream of a world not ashamed by hunger, disease, illiteracy, extreme necessity, needs-apart from roots- to spread its wings to fly. We need to spread our wings and fly. We are aware of a frightening neoliberal globalization, but there is also the reality of an interconnected world that we have to face not as a problem but as a challenge. We could, on the basis of national realities, exchange knowledge, integrate markets, interconnect, but at the same time we must understand that there are problems that do not have a national solution: radioactive clouds, world oil prices, diseases, warming of the planet or the hole in the ozone layer. These are not domestic problems. As we stride toward a new United Nations model that includes all of us when they talk about the people, we are bringing four indispensable and urgent reform proposals to this Assembly: the first; the expansion of the Security Council in its permanent categories as well as the non permanent categories, thus allowing new developed and developing countries as new permanent and non permanent categories. The second; we need to assure the necessary improvement of the work methodology in order to increase transparency, not to diminish it. The third; we need to immediately suppress- we have said this repeatedly in Venezuela for the past six years- the veto in the decisions taken by the Security Council, that elitist trace is incompatible with democracy, incompatible with the principles of equality and democracy. > And the fourth; we need to strengthen the role of the Secretary General; his/her political functions regarding preventive diplomacy, that role must be consolidated. The seriousness of all problems calls for deep transformations. Mere reforms are not enough to recover that “we” all the peoples of the world are waiting for. More than just reforms we in Venezuela call for the foundation of a new United Nations, or as the teacher of Simón Bolívar, Simón Rodríguez said: “Either we invent or we err.” There is more…enjoy. I’m not going to defend the man myself…I think he’s a loon. I’m amused that all these 3rd world countries that are supposedly shaking in their boots in fear of an imminent US attack feel so free in calling us all manner of names and attacking Bush though. Rather ironic IMHO. I WILL say though, that from H.C.'s perspective (and really every country NOT on the UNSC), the UN is certainly defective…and some of his points wrt THAT are valid (though of course over the top as is the man’s style). I also think the UN is deeply flawed and can see why countries not in the inner circle would feel that way too. Other than that I thought the speech nothing but bread and circus’s for good ole Hugo’s target masses…just a lot of hot air and bullshit. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/4 "2006-09-21T15:01:20Z")
[Transcript of Chavez’s speech here](http://counterpunch.org/chavez09202006.html) [Transcript of Bush’s ‘Axis of Evil’ SOTU here](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/01/20020129-11.html) Chavez’s speech flows better. Of course, I’ll admit to a weakness for big words like ‘hegemony’, ‘rostrum’, or ‘Chomsky’. Hitchcock references are a plus too. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/5 "2006-09-21T15:41:41Z")
He sounded like a clown. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/6 "2006-09-21T15:44:12Z")
He showed his ass. Truly unfortunate, because there are so many things to be said against Bush _fils_. It appears, though, that Sr Chavez is not the one to say them. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/7 "2006-09-21T15:46:04Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] By now everyone has seen Sr. Chávez’s speech at the UN. Strangely there is no thread on it. Of course it could be because the question that faces this house is simply, “Is President Hugo Chávez whacked or simply off his nut?” He has ruined his bid to get on the Security Council, he has freaked out lots of folks who had been (or could have been) his allies, he has made himself look like an ass. DOes anyone want to stand up for the man and his weird speech? [/QUOTE] Seemed like a fine rhetorical rant to me. Certainly no more whacked than ‘Axis of Evil’ and all that other Bush nonsense. The seat is his. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/8 "2006-09-21T16:00:34Z")
I got a hundred Saudi riyals that says no way. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/9 "2006-09-21T16:03:00Z")
Just out of curiosity, why was Bush’s Axis of Evil rhetoric non-sense while Hugo’s rant fine rhetoric? Aside from the fact that Bush can’t speak and Hugo can of course? Based on the subject and content alone, and leaving aside obvious prejudice, what makes Hugo’s message worth while, while Bush’s was non-sense? I’m curious. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/10 "2006-09-21T16:09:15Z")
It certainly wasn’t the high road to take, diplomatically. Not that Bush was on the high road himself. The speech did more to drag Chavez down to Bush’s level then it did to hurt Bush. But everybody wins- back home he’s seen as standing up to the US. Anti-Bush Americans can snicker at the punchlines. Pro-Bush Americans can point to it as a speech from the loony bin. In two weeks, it will be forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/11 "2006-09-21T16:16:56Z")
What did Chavez say that was so terrible? I’m having a hard time finding anything to disagree with. The “sulfur” line was outstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/12 "2006-09-21T16:20:26Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] [Speech](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10315.htm) in question: [/QUOTE] I’m sure you know that by now, but that was last year’s speech. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/13 "2006-09-21T16:20:59Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] What did Chavez say that was so terrible? I’m having a hard time finding anything to disagree with. The “sulfur” line was outstanding. [/QUOTE] Like minds think alike? Why am I unsurprised? 🙂 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/14 "2006-09-21T16:33:18Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] Of course it could be because the question that faces this house is simply, “Is President Hugo Chávez whacked or simply off his nut?” [/QUOTE] The perennial question with Chávez isn’t “Is he whacked?” but rather “How whacked is he today?” The man is more baked than vanful of Deadheads. It’s not like we–that is to say, Americans–can claim the high ground here, though. Bush’s obsession with the word “evil” (must have been on his Word of the Day calender that day) is only slightly less disturbing than his religious fundamentalism. But I still say that it’ll be hard to top Reagan for sheer disassociation with reality. That dude was whack in a way Zaphod Beeblebrox could only hope to approximate. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![ignoramus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@ignoramus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ignoramus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/15 "2006-09-21T16:41:15Z")
What, a truly democratic & meaningful UN without veto for the big boys? The man’s obviously insane… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/16 "2006-09-21T16:48:31Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] I’m sure you know that by now, but that was last year’s speech. [/QUOTE] Yes, my bad. Just did a quick google search and that popped up. I had read the speech yesterday in a news article but couldn’t find that one. Sorry. -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/17 "2006-09-21T16:55:01Z")
[QUOTE=ignoramus] What, a truly democratic & meaningful UN without veto for the big boys? The man’s obviously insane… [/QUOTE] If that were all he had to say I’d agree with him. -XT ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/18 "2006-09-21T17:01:23Z")
Kudos to Chavez! Excellent and truthful speech! _::::standing O:::::_ ---
**Author:** ![aegypt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@aegypt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aegypt)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/19 "2006-09-21T17:14:48Z")
What’s he saying that’s so crazy exactly? He’s just using a speaking that’s a bit more passionately that we in the West are accustomed to. That doesn’t automatically make him a loon. The man’s a Venezuelan politician whose fiery personality is what wins him votes. And the bit about sulphur was obviously a conscious nod toward the current happenings about Iran (where the term “the great Satan” originates). A show of support, though unwise from a public relations point of view since it will be the only thing about the speech that people remember. I don’t think he literally belives GWB to be the actual Christian devil. Nothing about Chavez suggests the delusional, he just believes strongly in the things he says. His main crime seems to be that he’s the democratically elected leader of a South American country and not entirely a tool of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/20 "2006-09-21T17:39:57Z")
To Chavez the man, the jury is out. Far too many times have we seen men ride a wave of populist ardor to positions of power, and then become corrupted by that power into despotism. A lot remains to be revealed, and I withold judgement. There is a lot about this man that reminds of Peron, and that ain’t good. As to Chavez the symbol: thats another matter. From what I’ve seen of the “outakes”, it sure looks as though he had a largely sympathetic audience. Laughed at this jokes, relaxed, leaning back. Compare with Bush’s speech: stiff, wooden, diplomatic faces revealing nothing. The kind of face you wear when being harangued by the guy with the biggest stick in the world, talking as loud as he fucking well pleases. We demand that the UN regard our enemies as theirs (and well they might!) But our every action carries a message of scorn and derision. I suspect that this is not how you win friends and influence nations. We demand that they cloak our military adventures with thier legitimacy, as if it were ours. We send them John Bolton, as clear a gesture of contempt as we might muster, a man with all the diplomatic skills of a crack-addled pit bull. And then we declare that if they don’t love us for it, there’s something wrong with _them_! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562.md?page=2)