# No Hugo Chávez Thread? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2006, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562 "2006-09-21T14:38:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/21 "2006-09-21T17:42:20Z")
I must admit some ignorance. What is Hugo Chvavez doing for his coutnry to make the people ther lives better? I really don’t know, does he put on a good image, stnad up to the US, give speeches at the UN as a cover for not paying much attention to the well-being of his people? Or is doing a lot actively to make the lives of the people he governs better? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/22 "2006-09-21T17:51:18Z")
There needs to be a new rule at the UN: "All delegates found on drugs… will be required to share with all the other delgates. _Did you bring enough for everybody?"_ 😛 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/23 "2006-09-21T17:52:18Z")
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus] I must admit some ignorance. What is Hugo Chvavez doing for his coutnry to make the people ther lives better? I really don’t know, does he put on a good image, stnad up to the US, give speeches at the UN as a cover for not paying much attention to the well-being of his people? Or is doing a lot actively to make the lives of the people he governs better? [/QUOTE] He uses Venezuela’s oil wealth to spread his own version of socialism…makes him popular with the people. I don’t know that this makes him necessarily a GOOD governor of his people…but it makes him a smart one at the very least. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/24 "2006-09-21T18:07:02Z")
It’s kind of amusing that he paralled Bush’s speech by going over the heads of the government and directly to the people - us, not Iran. His comment about how the UN is broken should resonate with Bolton and the neocons. The real sad thing, though, is that our image is so poor that he can make this speech without getting hooted out of the chamber. What is the official US position on Bolivia, anyhow? Trying to keep more of the benefits of minerals in the country seems like a good thing, though it traditionally upsets the mining companies. Let’s hope we’re too busy to help organize a coup. ---
**Author:** ![esquimalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@esquimalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esquimalt)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/25 "2006-09-21T18:17:27Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] He uses Venezuela’s oil wealth to spread his own version of socialism…makes him popular with the people. I don’t know that this makes him necessarily a GOOD governor of his people…but it makes him a smart one at the very least. -XT [/QUOTE] I think he has learned from the Middle East leaders, when things at home suck blame the USA “Violent crime in Venezuela has spiked in recent months. The country has the highest per-capita murder rate in the world.” [Link](http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1059.html) ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/26 "2006-09-21T18:43:26Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] He has ruined his bid to get on the Security Council, he has freaked out lots of folks who had been (or could have been) his allies, he has made himself look like an ass. DOes anyone want to stand up for the man and his weird speech? [/QUOTE] [Chavez drew tentative giggles at times from the audience, but also some\*\*\* applause when he called Bush the devil\*\*.\*](http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/09/20/D8K8P6J00.html) Niche marketing. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/27 "2006-09-21T18:46:46Z")
Why no thread? Because Chavez rose to power through a military coup attempt and then went on to use his power against future coup attempts. What needs to be debated? He’s a weaselfuck with a microphone looking for his 15 minutes of fame. His speech was a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/28 "2006-09-21T19:19:22Z")
Anyone who suggests the five permanent members of the United Nations security council should lose their veto power are suggesting the dissolution of the United Nations as a body capable of acting. There is a reason the United Kingdom, United States, France, Russia, and China are the five permanent members of the security council. It was known from the day the UN was being formed that these members would be the ones bearing the brunt of the military responsibility if the UN were ever to act. And indeed, in all of the major UN military operations in the interests of collective security that have ever been carried out, the five permanent members (usually 1-4 of them specifically) have carried the overwhelming majority of the military commitment. It was also known, by FDR, Stalin, et al. that the major world powers would never kowtow to lesser states. The leaders of all five of these countries (excepting China in 1945) knew that _they_ possessed the power to tell the UN “no way” anytime they wanted, whether or not they had veto power or not, since without veto power you have the threat of a major state simply leaving the UN if it doesn’t get its way, the veto power practically had to be hardcoded into the Security Council. Without the support of all five of these major powers, the UN cannot functionally exist as a body to promote collective security (its primary reason for existing) it would simply fall off to being a global humanitarian relief organization. If the U.S. and the U.K. withdrew, then operations like Desert Storm never could have happened and Kosove would not have been liberated. Likewise France and Russia have enough of the world’s power projection (though still not near as much as the US or the UK) that either of them leaving would be disastrous. China has kept itself less involved in the affairs of the UN militarily, but China becomes a more important state with every passing day. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/29 "2006-09-21T19:19:40Z")
Rhetoric aside, what did he say that was inaccurate? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/30 "2006-09-21T19:36:54Z")
[QUOTE=rjung] Rhetoric aside, what did he say that was inaccurate? [/QUOTE] GWB may indeed be evil (that’s a matter of opinion), but he is not “the devil”. Nor was there really a smell of brimstone. :rolleyes: He also claimed that Luis Posada Carriles confessed and was convicted of terrorism by bombing an airliner, which is false. (LPC was convicted of an assassination attempt on Castro, and was later pardoned). Chavez claimed they could trust Castro, and that Cuba is a “non-aligned” nation. :rolleyes: In fact, I found his speach to be remarkably “truth free”. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/31 "2006-09-21T19:47:32Z")
It was chocked full of truthy-ness…for the faithful. One has only to see who is going meh! about the speech and who is practically writhing with pleasure over it in this thread to see that. Of COURSE the faithful are going to love this speech and see it as gods own truth (or I suppose writ handed down from the people or some such thing :))…the man attacked the US AND Bush in the same breath after all! That alone is probably sufficient to have some of the faithful creaming their jeans with excitement. That he also got in a few shots across the bow of the UN is a bonus…though its ironic that some defending him are also one’s I’ve seen in the past saying how great the UN is. Hell, I’ve used Hugo’s same arguements before in other threads about the flaws in the UN…but I didn’t get quite this kind of reception for my words of wisdom. 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/32 "2006-09-21T19:52:23Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Hell, I’ve used Hugo’s same arguements before in other threads about the flaws in the UN…but I didn’t get quite this kind of reception for my words of wisdom. [/QUOTE] Maybe you’d get a better response if you spiced it up with a little devil talk. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/33 "2006-09-21T19:52:57Z")
OK, folks, listen up! **XT** needs a hug. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/34 "2006-09-21T19:53:47Z")
Well, they need a devil smiley. Then I could use it when refering to Bush and talk about the smell of brimstone…maybe put in a scratch and sniff link or something! " :mad: " (the quotes are horns…really) -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/35 "2006-09-21T19:54:53Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] OK, folks, listen up! XT needs a hug. [/QUOTE] 😛 Always… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/36 "2006-09-21T20:05:44Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] OK, folks, listen up! **XT** needs a hug. [/QUOTE] Nope! The man’s just [copped to being a Bush Apologist over in the Pit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7798364#post7798364). Now I admit that I didn’t see _that_ coming, but now that it has, I shall endeavor to be mean to him on all possible, and even some improbable occasions. Hugs are for the huggable, while kicks belong to the kickable. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/37 "2006-09-21T20:08:32Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Nope! The man’s just copped to being a Bush Apologist over in the Pit. Now I admit that I didn’t see that coming, but now that it has, I shall endeavor to be mean to him on all possible, and even some improbable occasions. Hugs are for the huggable, while kicks belong to the kickable. [/QUOTE] Yeah well…didn’t you admit to being the re-incarnation of L. Ron Hubbard?!? :eek: Besides ‘Bush apologists’ need hugs too… -XT ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/38 "2006-09-21T20:20:34Z")
[QUOTE=esquimalt] I think he has learned from the Middle East leaders, when things at home suck blame the USA “Violent crime in Venezuela has spiked in recent months. The country has the highest per-capita murder rate in the world.” [Link](http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1059.html) [/QUOTE] Maybe you should do a bit more reading: [Hugo Chavez’s Mission](http://www.counterpunch.org/burbach09242005.html) > [@](#): > > Venezuela is not constructing anything resembling socialism as we knew it in the last century. Thus far there have been no moves to take over the assets of the largest national or transnational enterprises of the country. Furthermore, Chavez has not proclaimed a Peoples state, only a Bolivarian Republic, while the state bureaucracy of the Ancien Regime remains largely intact. Finally no centralized political party has been charged with the task of transforming the the economy or the country´s social, political and cultural values. > > But even before Chavez´ proclamation that socialism is on the agenda, fundamental transformations had begun occurring in Venezuela. As Marta Harnecker, an adviser to Chavez states “Venezuela is engaged in a sui generis revolution.” > > At the United Nation’s Chavez mentioned the achievements of his seven year old government. **In a country of 25 million, 1.4 million learned to read and write within a year and a half, while three million Venezuelans previously excluded from education due to poverty enrolled in the education system. Seventy percent of the population now enjoys access to free health care while 45 percent of the people receive subsidized food via cooperatives, special food programs and government distribution centers.** > > These successes make the UN-backed Millennium Summit goal of reducing global poverty by fifty percent by 2015 and of providing primary education for all by the same year seem paultry. As Chavez noted, at the actual pace of change realized in the years since the summit, world hunger will not be halved until 2215 while universal primary education will not be realized until 2100. bolding mine Not too shabby… Here’s another good piece: [What to make of Hugo Chavez?](http://www.motherjones.com/news/qa/2005/09/richard_gott.html) > [@](#): > > Then again, there’s no gainsaying the fact that Chavez first won office, in 1998, in a fair election with 56 percent of the vote, or that since then he has prevailed in several electoral tests—not to mention a general strike and a coup attempt—growing steadily in popularity each time.\*\* Nor is there any denying that he has brought into the democratic process, for the first time, large numbers of Venezuela’s poor, most of whom live in the ranchos, or shanty towns, that ring the cities. (As for his alleged class baiting, in a country where the poor account for about 80 percent of the population and where income inequality is extreme and glaring, democratic politics can’t help but involve issues of class—and race: Venezuela’s poor are disproportionately black and indigenous.) Through a string of “missions” the Chavez government has brought healthcare and education to many of the ranchos and rural areas, which before now have seen little of either. The missions are financed by proceeds from Venezuela’s oil industry, control of which Chavez seized after the 2002 (another sore point for opponents), and which, against expectation, is humming along quite nicely. (Also worth noting: for all that he fulminates against “neo-liberalist” free trade, and for all that he has expanded the role of the state in Venezuela’s economy, Chavez’s economic policy is fairly eclectic: he’s pushed hard to have Venezuela admitted to Mercosur, the South American free trade bloc, and he’s an energetic courtier of foreign investment.)\*\* > > That Chavez is genuinely popular in Venezuela, and increasingly throughout Latin America, is cause for neither surprise nor alarm, according to Richard Gott, whose book, Hugo Chavez and the Bolivarian Revolution (Verso), recently updated and reissued, is the first account in English to place Chavez in historical and intellectual perspective. **In Gott’s sympathetic account, Chavez is a magnetic personality of the Clintonian type, “a genuinely original figure in Latin America,” a radical left-wing nationalist, to be sure, but a pragmatic improviser, and certainly no dogmatic socialist. Chavez’s program for Venezuela remains somewhat vague, even to the man himself, but his concern for the country’s poor and marginalized is, in Gott’s view, sincere and his vocation is essentially democratic.** bolding, again, mine. I say give the man a chance. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/39 "2006-09-21T20:22:31Z")
[Democrats respond.](http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/21/chavez.ny/index.html) [Quote=CNN] “If there’s any criticism of President Bush, it should be restricted to Americans, whether they voted for him or not,” Rangel said at a Washington news conference. [/QUOTE] Look dude, I appreciate your attempt to distance the legitimate criticism of Bush from the Crazy-Ass Chavezian criticism of Bush, but implying that them damn foreigners better not criticize the Presidence is ultra-stupid. Thanks for stepping in it. [Quote=CNN] House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-California, was blunt in her criticism of the Venezuelan leader. “He is an everyday thug,” she said. [/Quote] Much better, Ms. Pelosi. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/40 "2006-09-21T20:23:36Z")
I read about this speech in the paper today and how over the top it was. But reading that actual speech, it doesn’t seem that bad. I disagere with his assessement, but he’s not exactly screeming “Death to America”. And you gotta feel sorry for anyone who gets his political ideas from Chomsky… Of course, the real circus performance yesterday was given by President Mahmoud “The Holacost didn’t happen” Ahmedinejad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562.md?page=3)