# No Hugo Chávez Thread? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2006, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562 "2006-09-21T14:38:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/101 "2006-09-23T20:38:57Z")
So? Point remains. In the vast majority of cases, the rifles churned out would still be waste, regardless of whether the waste winds up in Bolivia instead of Venezuela. In a minority, they would be actively used to destroy things and people and make the central government more powerful. Somehow, I don’t see this as a good thing. And in Venezuela, money and effort is still being dedicated to a wasteful enterprise. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/102 "2006-09-23T22:42:59Z")
[QUOTE=pantom] So? Point remains. [/QUOTE] Point taken, and I **was** being jocular in citing the new rifle factories as an example of Venezuela economically diversifying under Chavez. OTOH, the country’s overall economic growth in 2004 was [16.8%, mostly in non-petroleum sectors.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela) That ain’t chickenfeed. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/103 "2006-09-23T23:34:32Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 😉 Your wording was misleading and dishonest. And what makes Chavez a “military thug”? He has a military background (like Washington, Jackson, Grant and Eisenhower), but he did not come to power by military means but by free elections. As for Carter – whose opinion in such matters should count for a very great deal – he has put his seal of approval only on the fairness of the last couple of Venezuelan **elections;** not the same as approving all Chavez’ actions in office. [/QUOTE] What makes him a military thug is the fact that he’s a thug who was involved in a military coup. The value of Carter’s opinion on anything died when he brokered nuclear reactors to a nutjob. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/104 "2006-09-23T23:40:45Z")
Pretty tough judge of Presidents, **Mac**. Can only imagine the contempt you must feel for the current one. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/105 "2006-09-23T23:50:22Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] The value of Carter’s opinion on anything died when he brokered nuclear reactors to a nutjob. [/QUOTE] 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/106 "2006-09-23T23:54:38Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 😕 [/QUOTE] 😕😕 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/107 "2006-09-23T23:57:41Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Pretty tough judge of Presidents, **Mac**. Can only imagine the contempt you must feel for the current one. [/QUOTE] You’ve always had a good imagination. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/108 "2006-09-23T23:57:48Z")
BTW, **Pantom,** you need to think harder about the economic potential of Chavez’ policies. He is using his country’s most valuable natural resource, oil (nationalized long before he was president), to finance social programs on a vast scale. We know from American experience from FDR through LBJ that such programs can lift millions out of poverty into the middle class and make even higher educational opportunities available to children of humble birth. That produces the kind of society a nation really needs to be, to compete in the modern global markeplace. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/109 "2006-09-24T00:46:53Z")
Only a quibble, friend **BG** , but I want education because it makes better citizens, not because it (may) make more effective workers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/110 "2006-09-24T03:29:35Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] 😕😕 [/QUOTE] When did Carter broker nuclear reactors to a nutjob? There’s nothing about that [here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_carter#Controversies) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/111 "2006-09-24T03:32:34Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] You’ve always had a good imagination. [/QUOTE] You must (if you have any claim to being a rational being) admit, **Magiver,** that Hugo Chavez is not only a better man and a better national leader than George W. Bush, but that he has a better claim to being national leader. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/112 "2006-09-24T03:51:23Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Only a quibble, friend **BG** , but I want education because it makes better citizens, not because it (may) make more effective workers. [/QUOTE] Good point, but the two (usually) go together. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/113 "2006-09-24T03:55:08Z")
Well, yeah, **BG** , but its like asking who would make a better camp counselor, Hannibal Lecter or Charlie Manson? I’m not sold on this guy, not by a long shot. Sure, he spouts progressive views, but he spouts them as dogma, not as political viewpoint. We’ve seen how autocratic he can behave when he wins an election, how will he behave when he _loses_ one? The gold standard on this would be the Sandanistas, who won a long and bitter civil war, held an election, and lost to a center-right coaliton…and handed over the power. That limns the distinction between a real progressive and an ambitious power-freak who exploits progressive principles for his own ends. We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/114 "2006-09-24T15:00:58Z")
Exactly. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/115 "2006-09-24T17:41:42Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] You must (if you have any claim to being a rational being) admit, **Magiver,** that Hugo Chavez is not only a better man and a better national leader than George W. Bush, but that he has a better claim to being national leader. [/QUOTE] Hugo Chavez is doing exactly what GWB is doing, promoting a narrow based ideology basically onto an entire area as some claim, in a 2nd or 3rd world (however you want to describe it) country, so he gets away with it. If there were a duplicate within the developed nations, you’d see a different picture. Hell, I could say the same about Uribe in Colombia. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/116 "2006-09-24T19:06:36Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] You must (if you have any claim to being a rational being) admit, **Magiver,** that Hugo Chavez is not only a better man and a better national leader than George W. Bush, but that he has a better claim to being national leader. [/QUOTE] Comedy is not your strong suit. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/117 "2006-09-25T03:32:51Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] When did Carter broker nuclear reactors to a nutjob? There’s nothing about that [here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_carter#Controversies) [/QUOTE] As a general rule you’re suppose to read the cites that you post. **In 1994, Carter went to North Korea at the behest of President Clinton. North Korea had expelled investigators from the International Atomic Energy Agency and was threatening to begin processing spent nuclear fuel. Carter met with North Korean President Kim Il Sung resulting in the signing of the Agreed Framework, under which North Korea agreed to stop processing nuclear fuel, in exchange for a return to normalized relations, oil deliveries [COLOR=Black]and two light water reactors to replace its graphite reactors.[/COLOR]** ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/118 "2006-09-25T03:56:14Z")
Maybe you should look up this “light water reactor” stuff. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/119 "2006-09-25T04:19:34Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] As a general rule you’re suppose to read the cites that you post. **In 1994, Carter went to North Korea at the behest of President Clinton. North Korea had expelled investigators from the International Atomic Energy Agency and was threatening to begin processing spent nuclear fuel. Carter met with North Korean President Kim Il Sung resulting in the signing of the Agreed Framework, under which North Korea agreed to stop processing nuclear fuel, in exchange for a return to normalized relations, oil deliveries [COLOR=Black]and two light water reactors to replace its graphite reactors.[/COLOR]** [/QUOTE] [Solving the North Korean Nuclear Puzzle](http://www.isis-online.org/publications/dprk/book/app3.html) > [@](#): > > Appendix 3: Setting the Record Straight About Plutonium Production in North Korea > > In debating the merits of the Agreed Framework, critics have repeatedly charged that the provision of the two light-water reactors (LWRs) to North Korea will actually enhance North Korea’s ability to make nuclear weapons, compared to its pre-Agreed Framework nuclear capability. A typical version of this criticism was distributed on April 11, 2000 by the House Policy Committee, chaired by Representative Christopher Cox (R-CA), that stated that “the plutonium produced by the new light-water reactors U.S. taxpayers are financing can be reprocessed to arm 65 bombs a year-more than five times as many” that could have been produced from facilities North Korea was building on its own.2 > > This appendix discusses the fallacies in these types of statements. It is correct that LWRs produce these quantities of plutonium. But these types of statements ignore the plutonium that would have been produced in the third, and largest, gas-graphite reactor that North Korea was building. They also ignore or downplay the difficulty of chemically separating the plutonium from the spent LWR fuel compared to spent gas-graphite reactor fuel. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562/120 "2006-09-25T16:21:14Z")
So which part are you disputing? That Carter didn’t broker the deal, that no nuclear reactors were involved, or that Kim Jong-il isn’t a nutjob? > [@](#): > > When did Carter broker nuclear reactors to a nutjob? IOW, the cite demonstrates that every single word that **Magiver** said is the exact truth. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-hugo-chavez-thread/373562.md?page=7)