# "No Irish Need Apply" - how was it defined and applied in real life? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 9, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782 "2014-12-09T19:17:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/21 "2014-12-10T09:24:30Z")
What’s your source for saying that “none but German or Swede need apply” was common in advertisements? I found a few cases of it, but I don’t know of any evidence that it was common or that it’s even a common urban legend that it was common. Where did you hear this? ---
**Author:** ![hellasketchy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@hellasketchy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hellasketchy)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/22 "2014-12-10T13:44:07Z")
When I visited my cousins in Belfast at the tail end of the Troubles, I asked them how they could tell if someone was Catholic or Protestant. They said it was by name (certainly last name, and often first names as well). Specifically, they told me “with a name like Shamus Fitzgerald, you may as well be black”. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/23 "2014-12-10T14:57:10Z")
> [@hellasketchy](#): > > “with a name like Shamus Fitzgerald, you may as well be black”. I’ve been to Ireland lots, and have many 2nd cousins (or first-once-removed - whatever) named Fitzgerald (or sometimes Fitz) and they’re all Catholic. My first cousins (35 of them not including their parents) have an unusual name for Irish folk. It starts with Guin - but it’s not Guinness. I have not been to the North. My last name was created by an Immigration Man in 1939 who thought America had too many Larsons. Yeah, they often did that. Maybe my father being Norwegian could get me one of those "Only German or Swedish need apply"jobs but my Mom being Irish would maybe cancel that. Oh, and I think the name would be [Séamus / Seamus](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdEiH6BbiDQ), like David Gilmour’s hound-dog. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/24 "2014-12-10T16:11:58Z")
Prejudice and discrimination against Irish immigrants was real enough in the 19th century, but even if there ever had been real “NINA” signs or disclaimers in job advertisements, they would have been long gone by 1900, when several of America’s largest cities already had Irish or Irish-American mayors. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/25 "2014-12-10T17:31:40Z")
Speaking of Northern Ireland, they just outlawed prostitution. A link from the great tabloid The New York Daily News, with a (SFW) picture showing some womens’ lower legs and stiletto heels. > **[Northern Ireland makes it illegal to pay for sex](https://www.nydailynews.com/2014/12/09/northern-ireland-makes-it-illegal-to-pay-for-sex/)** > > BELFAST, Northern Ireland — Northern Ireland has become the first part of the United Kingdom to outlaw paying for sex, mirroring a move pioneered in Scandinavian countries. The vast majority … > [@](#): > > The region becomes the first part of the United Kingdom to criminalize prostitution and the customers can receive up to one year in prison. The act is legal in the rest of the United Kingdom and most of Europe. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/26 "2014-12-11T08:13:43Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > Speaking of Northern Ireland, they just outlawed prostitution. Not exactly. They criminalised paying for sex and decriminalised selling it on the streets. Selling sex indoors will remain legal as long as you do it alone. To make this vaguely relevant to the OP: according to an Irish sex worker I know, this law (even though it won’t come into effect until next June) is already having a reverse no-Irish-need-apply effect: migrant escorts are losing trade while Irish and British escorts are seeing an upturn, because clients assume the police won’t be concerned about the latter. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/27 "2014-12-11T16:11:23Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Selling sex indoors will remain legal as long as you do it alone. That’s why I’ll never move to N.I. In America, doing it alone has always been free. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/28 "2014-12-11T16:38:10Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s not like bigotry has a set of rational rules. > > “No Irish Need Apply” meant that if they thought you were Irish, they didn’t hire you. It didn’t matter what your actual nationality or ancestry was. This. Most determined by people that knew you or by your accent. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/29 "2014-12-11T16:49:13Z")
Here are a couple of lines from _Pendennis_, a thoroughly English novel, and it was written by Thackeray in 1848. Pendennis’s uncle and friend are discussing why they need to halt a romance between Pendennis and an Irish actress: ’ “Upon my word,” the Major answered, quite delighted, “I think you may be of very great service to me. You are a young man of the world, and with such one likes to deal. And as such I need not inform you that our family is by no means delighted at this absurd intrigue in which Arthur is engaged.” “I should rather think not,” said Mr. Foker. “Connexion not eligible. Too much beer drunk on the premises. No Irish need apply. That I take to be your meaning.” The Major said it was, exactly; . . .’ ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/30 "2014-12-11T18:19:14Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > Speaking of Northern Ireland, they just outlawed prostitution… there’s the story of how Paddy and Seamus are working on the paving just down from the house of ill repute. They see the protestant minister walk up, look around furtively, and duck into the bawdyhouse. “Fer shame!” says Paddy. “He’s supposed to be a minister of the cloth and all that…” A little while later, the local rabbi does the same thing, ducks into the house. “Tsk, tsk,” says Seamus. “another weak man of the cloth!” Not too much later, the catholic priest also comes down the street and goes into the house. “Ahh,” says Paddy. “Some of the girls must be feelin’ poorly.” In the Good Old Days, I’m sure name and accent was more than enough to give away country of origin. Based on the way immigrants tended to live in communities, likely even the second generation would have a trace of the old accent. Names were also a giveaway. With the massive emigration of the Irish due to the famine, a lot of the extremely poor lower class flooded the New World and probably helped contribute to the negative stereotype. In general, though, it was more of a social thing than seriously racial - at a certain point the Irish would be hard to tell from normal people 🙂 However, I went to the Merchant House Museum in lower Manhattan, and they mentioned that the maids and help in the mid to late 1800s were Irish girls. So, not everyone was so dead set against Irish help. (as long as they knew their place, I suppose; and they were cheap labour) ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/31 "2014-12-11T18:33:41Z")
The signs were certainly insulting but there were jobs for the Irish, anyway. Perhaps Ye Olde Colonial Ribbon Shoppe was too snooty to hire somebody just off the boat. But those needing miners, railroad workers, scullery maids, etc., were hardly as selective. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/32 "2014-12-13T14:31:42Z")
> [@hellasketchy](#): > > When I visited my cousins in Belfast at the tail end of the Troubles, I asked them how they could tell if someone was Catholic or Protestant. They said it was by name (certainly last name, and often first names as well). Specifically, they told me “with a name like Shamus Fitzgerald, you may as well be black”. I think that first name is far more surefire than surname. ---
**Author:** ![BobArrgh](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobarrgh/32/2881_2.png) [@BobArrgh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobArrgh)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/33 "2014-12-15T03:34:32Z")
At the Irish Cultural Center in Kansas City, there is a metal sign, which I believe was taken from a local business. The sign is either “No Irish Need Apply” or “Irish Need Not Apply”. I will send an email to my Irish language teacher tomorrow to see if she can shed a little light on its provenance and story. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/34 "2014-12-15T03:45:59Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > As a Maroon Irish Passport Carrying Irish Citizen, I can try to answer this: > > The Irish were (and of course mostly **are** ) Catholic > Sterotyped as heavy drinkers (maybe somewhat accurate :b) > They’re good at Golf and Gaelic Football (I had to add that) > > And in the words of Roddy Doyle, in The Commitments: (and oh heck, I’m gonna quote the book, not the movie) > > "The Irish are the N\*‘s of Europe, lads.. An’ Dubliners are the N_s of Ireland… An’ the Northside dubliners are the N_’s of Dublin – so say it loud “I’m black and I’m proud” > > (I decided against using that N\* word. In the movie, Jimmy Rabbite says “black” all four times. If Alan Parker went that way, so will I. Roddy Doyle, in the book, uses the N\* word the first three times) > > I reckon nowadays, the Irish are accepted. They make best stout (Guinness). The best whiskey (Jameson) and the best parade. I thought for sure he said “N—ers” in the movie as well. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/35 "2014-12-15T03:49:07Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I think that first name is far more surefire than surname. Yeah, if you’re named stop me if I’m wrong , but if you’re named Sean or Liam you’re almost certainly Catholic and Bill, Billy, William, you’re probably not. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/36 "2014-12-15T04:57:30Z")
1. Probably not Irish. They’re not going to do a 19th century 23andme. 2. Possibly not. 3. Yes. 4. Probably related to religion. 5. Probably you can be excluded and still be a citizen if “ethnic” enough. Or else they could just ask for your eligibility. The old shibboleth is that the letter “H” was pronounced “aitch” by Protestants (like Americans) and “haitch” by Catholics. Don’t know if that’s still typical. Protestants love the name “Billy.” The British had the concept of [martial races](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_Race). You could trust some to fight, but not raise your kids and vice versa. You’d have to subdue the first group first. > [@typoink](#): > > You had me until you spelled whisky wrong. > > ( 😉 ) Remind me what country is the origin of the drink and it’s name again? Damned golf-playing, underwear-lacking, smoked peat whiskey drinkers… ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/37 "2014-12-15T07:17:54Z")
> [@syncrolecyne](#): > > A few other such notices are sprinkled in late nineteenth-century newspapers. Interestingly, there are far more references - even then - to the supposed pervasiveness of such notices in earlier decades. However, the phrase “no Irish” does not get a huge number of hit in comparison to other such phrases that target other groups. “No Italians” or “no Jews” receive more hits, including notices into the 1920s. Interesting. So the Irish got out of that position far earlier than other, less populous groups. And if we talk about the stereotype of NINA more than other such notices now, it’s because the Irish in America are so populous, widespread, and successful, compared to Italians, Jews, Chinese, etc. in America? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/38 "2014-12-15T14:49:27Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > The old shibboleth is that the letter “H” was pronounced “aitch” by Protestants (like Americans) and “haitch” by Catholics. I don’t really know if it is directly divided on Protestant/Catholic lines but any Irish person I know from the south says “haitch” and I have heard the “aitch” pronunciation in the north occasionally. Apparently it’s a thing in Australia too or was. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/39 "2014-12-15T15:00:16Z")
Speaking as an Irish-American… I can’t help but suspect that the “NINA” legend, while it has some small basis in reality (in the mid-19th century, the Irish were widely despised and discriminated again) is kept alive for an unfortunate reason. When some ethnic groups are given what’s regarded as preferential treatment (affirmative action, e.g.) on the grounds that these groups have suffered in the past, other ethnic groups are likely to respond “Hey, what about US? WE suffered, too!” The sufferings of our ancestors, therefore, sometimes becomes a game of one-upmanship. If third-generation Irish-American Jack Fitzgerald doesn’t like seeing affirmative action for blacks or Mexicans, he may grumble, “MY ancestors faced discrimination a hundred years ago too, so why should THEY get special treatment?” ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/40 "2014-12-15T15:55:52Z")
> [@BobArrgh](#): > > At the Irish Cultural Center in Kansas City, there is a metal sign, which I believe was taken from a local business. The sign is either “No Irish Need Apply” or “Irish Need Not Apply”. I will send an email to my Irish language teacher tomorrow to see if she can shed a little light on its provenance and story. Replica (if they are indeed copied from an original) metal NINA signs are a very popular item at Irish festivals in the US I’m told. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782.md?page=3)