# "No Irish Need Apply" - how was it defined and applied in real life? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 9, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782 "2014-12-09T19:17:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/41 "2014-12-15T17:46:29Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Speaking as an Irish-American… I can’t help but suspect that the “NINA” legend, while it has some small basis in reality (in the mid-19th century, the Irish were widely despised and discriminated again) is kept alive for an unfortunate reason. > > When some ethnic groups are given what’s regarded as preferential treatment (affirmative action, e.g.) on the grounds that these groups have suffered in the past, other ethnic groups are likely to respond “Hey, what about US? WE suffered, too!” > > The sufferings of our ancestors, therefore, sometimes becomes a game of one-upmanship. If third-generation Irish-American Jack Fitzgerald doesn’t like seeing affirmative action for blacks or Mexicans, he may grumble, “MY ancestors faced discrimination a hundred years ago too, so why should THEY get special treatment?” Really good point. As a white person with various ancestry, it is annoying sometimes to see all these Affirmative Action policies that favor others, but nobody seems to care about how my ancestors suffered. Well, my Irish ancestors fled for their lives during the Famine and then had to deal with NINA and living in horrible conditions in NYC and Philadelphia? Where are my reparations? What about my Pennsylvania Dutch ancestors who dealt with the anti-German bias in WW1? Where are the reparations to atone for how badly you treated grandma? Can I at least get a minority scholarship or something? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/42 "2014-12-15T17:56:07Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Really good point. As a white person with various ancestry, it is annoying sometimes to see all these Affirmative Action policies that favor others, but nobody seems to care about how my ancestors suffered… And it’s also pretty likely that there are some victims of the Highland Clearances in my family tree. Umm, that wasn’t cool, dude. Reparations? FREEDOM!! (and minority scholarships!!!) ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/43 "2014-12-15T23:26:40Z")
Huh. I would hope that knowing that your ancestors were strangers in the land and despised might give you some perspective, so you don’t act so superior to immigrants and minorities now. Is that _not_ how it’s thought about? Or is that the difference between right-wing and left-wing Irish-Americans? Maybe I should start an IMHO thread or something. ---
**Author:** ![fire\_hazard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6de8d8/32.png) [@fire\_hazard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fire_hazard)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/44 "2014-12-15T23:44:13Z")
Hi, Irish history is a sad story. In the nineteenth century the Irish arriving in America were lucky enough to have a choice about where they went. The Irish sold as slaves in the seventeenth century might have faced much greater discrimination I’d think. Our colonial masters had adopted the policy of “transportation” to Australia by the nineteenth century for the more troublesome and less lucky. The economic genocide of “The Famine” was another interesting social policy. Not intended as one upmanship. No Irish Need Apply was trivial in comparison to how things were here. Take care… ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/45 "2014-12-15T23:58:35Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Huh. I would hope that knowing that your ancestors were strangers in the land and despised might give you some perspective, so you don’t act so superior to immigrants and minorities now. > > Is that _not_ how it’s thought about? Or is that the difference between right-wing and left-wing Irish-Americans? > > Maybe I should start an IMHO thread or something. Maybe an IMHO thread or a GD thread would be a good idea. Anyway, why are African Americans considered a minority while Irish Americans are not? Is it the fact that you can’t just look at someone and say, oh, he’s Irish? Is it a subjective judgment as to what level of prejudice remains? If that’s the case, then arguably there should be someone out there monitoring society for the right moment when prejudice drops to the critical mark so that they can notify the Office of Ethnic Equality to officially de-classify African Americans as minorities and admit them to the majority society. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/46 "2014-12-16T00:01:33Z")
> [@fire\_hazard](#): > > … > Irish history is a sad story. > > In the nineteenth century the Irish arriving in America were lucky enough to have a choice about where they went. > > The Irish sold as slaves in the seventeenth century might have faced much greater discrimination I’d think… > The economic genocide of “The Famine” was another interesting social policy… > Take care… The more I learn about Irish history, the more the awful the situation seems. At times it did rise to genocidal or almost-genocidal levels. So, where are our reparations? All that suffering, and you won’t give us _anything_? Anyone? Bueller? So you can abuse my people and then give us nothing, and then turn around and give all sorts of benefits to others that you also abused? What sort of twisted logic is that? That’s not real remorse, or real social justice. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/47 "2014-12-16T00:38:59Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I don’t really know if it is directly divided on Protestant/Catholic lines but any Irish person I know from the south says “haitch” and I have heard the “aitch” pronunciation in the north occasionally. Apparently it’s a thing in Australia too or was. Yeah, sorry, NI specific I’m sure. I don’t know how say, Bono (or someone from a purely Anglo-Irish background), would say it but I imagine things in the south are more uniform. > [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Anyway, why are African Americans considered a minority while Irish Americans are not? Is it the fact that you can’t just look at someone and say, oh, he’s Irish? Yes, pretty much. Not the only one, but appearance is the easiest stereotype before someone even opens their mouth. See also: passing. ---
**Author:** ![fire\_hazard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6de8d8/32.png) [@fire\_hazard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fire_hazard)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/48 "2014-12-16T01:03:36Z")
Hi, as an Irish person I have no interest at all in reparations of any kind. The line in Ulysses about “History is a nightmare…” was written a long time ago. There is no future in the past… Discrimination against the Irish is regarded as a joke now.🙂 Not everyone has done as well it seems…:mad: Take care ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/49 "2014-12-16T02:20:13Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > My last name was created by an Immigration Man in 1939 who thought America had too many Larsons. Yeah, they often did that. > > Maybe my father being Norwegian … Ahem. Then the name should be Lar_sen_, not Lar_son_. Or was he trying to pass for Swedish? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BobArrgh](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobarrgh/32/2881_2.png) [@BobArrgh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobArrgh)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/50 "2014-12-16T03:13:57Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Replica (if they are indeed copied from an original) metal NINA signs are a very popular item at Irish festivals in the US I’m told. You are so right! It was definitely a replica sign, and not used in any local businesses. My teacher sent me a link to some research conducted by someone at University of Illinois at Chicago wherein it looks like the NINA myth (at least in the USA) is just that: a myth. This link has a boatload of information [http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm](http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm). ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/51 "2014-12-16T03:40:42Z")
[Here’s a pretty good article](http://www.counterweights.ca/2005/11/orange_order/) (which rambles for a bit before getting going) about historical anti-Irish Catholic sentiment by the Canadian establishment. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/52 "2014-12-16T13:06:40Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > As a Maroon Irish Passport Carrying Irish Citizen, I can try to answer this: > > The Irish were (and of course mostly **are** ) Catholic > Sterotyped as heavy drinkers (maybe somewhat accurate :b) > They’re good at Golf and Gaelic Football (I had to add that) > > And in the words of Roddy Doyle, in The Commitments: (and oh heck, I’m gonna quote the book, not the movie) > > "The Irish are the N\*‘s of Europe, lads.. An’ Dubliners are the N_s of Ireland… An’ the Northside dubliners are the N_’s of Dublin – so say it loud “I’m black and I’m proud” > > (I decided against using that N\* word. In the movie, Jimmy Rabbite says “black” all four times. If Alan Parker went that way, so will I. Roddy Doyle, in the book, uses the N\* word the first three times) > > I reckon nowadays, the Irish are accepted. They make best stout (Guinness). The best whiskey (Jameson) and the best parade. That’s my go to quote when I’m “trying” an Irish accent. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/53 "2014-12-16T15:40:59Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > [Here’s a pretty good article](http://www.counterweights.ca/2005/11/orange_order/) (which rambles for a bit before getting going) about historical anti-Irish Catholic sentiment by the Canadian establishment. I think Canada was more about anti-Catholic sentiment. While current Canadian political affairs revolve around language (or used to) the original BNA Act that formed Canada recognized the formation of public school boards and a “separate” school board for those pesky Catholics. I guess between the French already here and a wave of Catholic Irish, the protestant ruling class felt like they were being overwhelmed and needed to keep those pesky critters away. I remember even in the 60’s when I was in (Catholic) grade school, someone made a comment about how only one of the top 100 companies in Ontario had a Catholic president. And, thanks to a 1930’s court decision, Catholic school boards were only funded to Grade 10 because that was sufficient education for a Catholic in those days. I would say that the NINA (if at all) had faded much sooner than Jewish or Italian discrimination, because the wave of lower-class Irish arrived in the early 1800’s during the famine, while those other groups arrived in the later 1800’s and early 1900’s. So by the 1920’s, the Italians and Jewish immigrants were FOB or first generation, while the Irish would be mostly well assimilated 2nd or 3rd generation (or higher generations, if the stories about Irish reproduction are true… 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782/54 "2014-12-16T18:11:31Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Ahem. Then the name should be Lar_sen_, not Lar_son_. Or was he trying to pass for Swedish? :dubious: Yes, my mistake: Larsen it was. And as per family lore, it was changed at point-of-entry by an official (customs I guess?). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-irish-need-apply-how-was-it-defined-and-applied-in-real-life/706782.md?page=2)