# No Jesus, No Peace! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 22, 2002, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959 "2002-04-22T09:29:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/61 "2002-04-23T02:01:39Z")
Besides, doesn’t love the sinner, hate the sin apply to anything? I mean, how I understood it was when my mother would say, “You know, I love you. I may not always like what you do, but that doesn’t mean I don’t love you.” I mean, I may disagree with some people here on their political views, but I still like them as people. Would that count? ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/62 "2002-04-23T02:11:05Z")
**Jodi** , **gobear** , et al, would you please join me in [Great Debates](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111050)? Thanks. [sub]of course, by the time I get this posted you’ll probably already have seen the darn thread…sigh[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/63 "2002-04-23T02:20:27Z")
**Jodi** , **gobear** , et al, would you please join me in [Great Debates](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111050)? Thanks. [sub]of course, by the time I get this posted you’ll probably already have seen the darn thread…sigh[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/64 "2002-04-23T02:26:12Z")
**Jodi** , **gobear** , et al, would you please join me in [Great Debates](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111050)? Thanks. [sub]of course, by the time I get this posted you’ll probably already have seen the darn thread…sigh[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/65 "2002-04-23T02:40:27Z")
Crap, I wish I had not said a fucking word. > [@](#): > > Oh please. Please copy and paste where any of us have done that. **Racincikki** said, “I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with so many assholes who happened to be Christian. I still think you’re wrong in general.” **Jarbaby** said, “I read your other posts and your evidence for this amazing stat was due to personal experience and anecdotes. Certainly then, you’ll take my anecdotal evidence to the contrary.” So, yeah, I’m feeling blown off. You’re sore about the Ashcroft/Polycarp comparison? I FUCKING RETRACT IT!!! > [@](#): > > Unless you want us to believe that yes, you actually have met every single Christian in the USA, and yes, you have taken time to get acquainted with each and every one of them, and yes, > 90% of them are assholes. Call it “population sampling.” But, no matter, my experiences don’t count. **Yosemitebabe** , do you think your anger and hate for me make me rethink my ideas of Christian love? Do you think you’re fufilling the words of Jesus? If it makes you happy, I’m crying right now. I would have liked to have been accepted by the church, and not to be hated. I hate it that my sister won’t have any contact with me because of her love for Jesus. I hate the constant feeling of rejection. You wrote, “Oh good grief. What melodrama.” No, it’s honest emotion, deep feelings I didn’t even know I had until now. So pateyourself on the back, **Yosemitebabe**. Mission accomplished. ---
**Author:** ![DPWhite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d26b3c/32.png) [@DPWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPWhite)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/66 "2002-04-23T02:48:16Z")
Beloved, let us love one another. For he who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 1 John 4:7-8 ---
**Author:** ![racinchikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@racinchikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racinchikki)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/67 "2002-04-23T02:48:20Z")
I wasn’t blowing you off. I am truly sorry you’ve had to deal with it. HOWEVER, I continue to disagree with you. If you want to think that’s “blowing you off,” well, I’m sorry. Again. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/68 "2002-04-23T02:55:11Z")
> [@](#): > > HOWEVER, I continue to disagree with you. WTF? I RETRACTED everything I said. I took it all back, so what are you disagreeing with now? ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/69 "2002-04-23T03:15:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **Racincikki** said, “I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with so many assholes who happened to be Christian. I still think you’re wrong in general.” _WHAT_, pray tell, did she mean by that? Did she mean that you were wrong about your personal experiences? That you didn’t experience them? Now, that wouldn’t make much sense, would it? Since she says she’s **sorry** that you’ve had to deal with such assholes. More than likely she thinks you are WRONG about is your claim that 90% of ALL Christians in the USA are assholes. How many times do I have to make this point? _That’s_ the broad brush you are painting. None of us want to take anything away from the pain you’ve endured. We just don’t think that it proves that **90% of ALL Christians** are assholes. That’s all. > [@](#): > > **Jarbaby** said, “I read your other posts and your evidence for this amazing stat was due to personal experience and anecdotes. Certainly then, you’ll take my anecdotal evidence to the contrary.” And what exactly is in there that is saying that your feelings or experiences don’t count? You put forth your personal feeling as “evidence” that 90% of ALL Christians in the USA are assholes. Jarbaby puts forth her personal experiences as “evidence” to the contrary. What do you want? For her experiences to mean nothing? And how exactly is she dismissing YOUR experiences by relating her own? > [@](#): > > So, yeah, I’m feeling blown off. No, you were missing the entire point that they were trying to make. > [@](#): > > You’re sore about the Ashcroft/Polycarp comparison? I FUCKING RETRACT IT!!! Fine. And what a gracious job you’ve done of it too. > [@](#): > > Call it “population sampling.” But, no matter, my experiences don’t count. No, they count. Just like jarbaby’s experiences count. Or mine, or Jodi’s, or racinchicki’s. What? Do you think your experiences count _more?_ I am not sure what your point is. > [@](#): > > **Yosemitebabe** , do you think your anger and hate for me make me rethink my ideas of Christian love? Do you think you’re fufilling the words of Jesus? > > If it makes you happy, I’m crying right now. I would have liked to have been accepted by the church, and not to be hated. I hate it that my sister won’t have any contact with me because of her love for Jesus. I hate the constant feeling of rejection. Oh man, that sucks. None of us doubt that you’ve suffered terrible pain. None of us want to belittle that. But your considerable pain does not mean that 90% of the entire US Christian population are assholes. I don’t think you should be so upset that we don’t buy that. We are entitled to not buy that. > [@](#): > > You wrote, “Oh good grief. What melodrama.” No, it’s honest emotion, deep feelings I didn’t even know I had until now. I can appreciate that you have deep feelings. I don’t wish to dismiss them. But don’t you see, that you are dismissing everyone else’s feelings, when you paint with such a broad brush? And, the “melodrama” you express was your basic attitude of “fine, I won’t post here anymore” when people started to disagree with you. _That’s_ melodrama. Not your feelings, or your pain. > [@](#): > > So pateyourself on the back, **Yosemitebabe**. Mission accomplished. \*\* ☹ 😕 Wha…? Where did you get the message that I hate you? You are one of my favorites. I am at a loss here. What is this? Do you think that everyone who takes exception with a broad-brush claim you make **hates** you? Obviously this is a highly emotional issue for you. I wish you no pain. But you must realize - most of us won’t let a broad brush statement - like the one you made here - go without disagreeing and discussing it. Why did you expect any different? ---
**Author:** ![racinchikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@racinchikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racinchikki)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/70 "2002-04-23T03:29:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* > WTF? I RETRACTED everything I said. I took it all back, so what are you disagreeing with now? \*\* Whether you retract it or not, I disagree with it. ::shrug:: ---
**Author:** ![Riboflavin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/71 "2002-04-23T05:16:28Z")
Ah yes, Libertarian is engaging full force in the traditional ‘no true scotsmen’ fallacy that certain christians so love. So, lib, your assertion is that real christians should be ‘good people’, and that any christians who are not ‘good people’ are not really christians? Boy, that’s just swell… oh, wait, how can I tell who the good christians are before they go bad? Why should I take your word for the correct interpretation of a self-contradictory religious work when there are all of these other people who can make just as reasonable an argument for a different one? ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/72 "2002-04-23T05:24:28Z")
Here are some [statistics](http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PagePressRelease.asp?PressReleaseID=94&Reference=E&Key=homosexual) on views toward homosexuality stratified by type of Christian faith. To add my two cents, I’m rather stunned by how many Christians thought that homosexual relations should be illegal and/or found homosexuality to be an unacceptable lifestyle. ---
**Author:** ![Magickly\_Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magickly\_Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magickly_Delicious)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/73 "2002-04-23T05:32:37Z")
What is sad is that the historical period of the New Testament was not exactly known for being peaceful. People can claim “No Jesus, No Peace,” but unfortunately even when Jesus was here, there was little peace. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/74 "2002-04-23T05:41:48Z")
So, 1,003 Christians (according to this poll) were interviewed. > [@](#): > > When asked if homosexual relations between consenting adults should be legal or not legal, a slight plurality of adults (48%) said such relationships should be legal, while 42% said they should not be legal. One out of every ten adults did not have an opinion on the matter. 42% of these 1,003 Christians said homosexuality should not be legal. Yes, I am shocked by the high number as well. But, even if we all take this poll of 1,003 people as a truly accurate representation of ALL Christians in America (which I am quite ambivalent about at this point) then that means that 58% of these people either had no problem with homosexual acts being legal, or had no opinion. 42% is too high, but it ain’t 90%, is it? ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/75 "2002-04-23T09:50:43Z")
Actually a ratio of 1:10 would mean that 91% were assholes. But I digress. I’m sorry **Jar** , but there is a big - nay HUGE - difference between “no Jesus, no peace” and “know Jesus, know peace”. The former implies that _without_ Jesus _there can be no_ peace, the latter implies that Jesus is one possible path to peace. So I have a big problem with the slogan that is the title of this thread. It is, in essence, stating that anyone who does not take this 2000 year old story as the absolute truth is doomed to violence, immorality, you name it. It is not possible for them to be peaceful. I would expect _any_ Christian who does not want to identify themselves as being within that apocryphal 91% to reject it immediately and utterly. pan ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/76 "2002-04-23T10:53:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Perhaps it time they spoke up. I’ll make the arguement that if you see a bigoted Christian “letter to the editor” or hear another pronouncement from Falwell, then if you disagree, you are obligated to defend your faith and write a counter-arguement. As gobear has mentioned before, we rarely see any real-life effort to confront or contradict the hate message. On the contrary, the confrontations are there. Maybe it’s time you paid more attention. See, for example, [God Loves Fags](http://www.godlovesfags.com), a site where gay Christians monitor the activities of Phelps and others, and actively promote education and tolerance. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/77 "2002-04-23T11:00:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Ah yes, Libertarian is engaging full force in the traditional ‘no true scotsmen’ fallacy that certain christians so love… Why should I take your word for the correct interpretation of a self-contradictory religious work when there are all of these other people who can make just as reasonable an argument for a different one? You shouldn’t. No true curmudgeon ever would. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/78 "2002-04-23T11:55:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Actually a ratio of 1:10 would mean that 91% were assholes. Thanks. I _knew_ I had gotten the math wrong on that! 🙂 > [@](#): > > So I have a big problem with the slogan that is the title of this thread. So do most of the rest of us. It’s one of those lame slogans that make me cringe. That’s why I don’t ever display such slogans on my car, nor do I wear cutesy “Christian” t-shirts. Barf. To say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/79 "2002-04-23T13:41:01Z")
Well, **Libertarian** , that is a site maintained by Gay Christians. What I’m looking for is outspoken Straight Christians to confront their bigoted brothers. I know you’ll find several examples on this board. But I’m talking real life. I’ll acknowledge that the United Methodist Church is moving, slowly, towards greater acceptance. Other smaller demoninations already have better records on this issue (Unitarians and Quakers). But the largest demoninations influence more people and that is where change is necessary. Actually, **yosemitebabe** , I think you’ve misread the statistics. The 1003 participants in the study included Christians, people of other faiths and atheists. This stat is telling: > [@](#): > > The religious gap was wider on this item with born again Christians twice as likely as non-Christians (66% vs. 34%, respectively) to portray homosexuality as an unacceptable lifestyle Even in the traditionally forward moving Presbyterian sect, things are not improving much. For instance, the members of the church defeated, by a margin of almost 2-to-1, a proposal to allow oridination of gay ministers. Here’s the reaction from one “Renewal” group: > [@](#): > > [T]he defeat will signal the strongest affirmation to date on the part of the vast majority of Presbyterians in preserving the Biblical witness to marriage between a man and a woman, and in upholding those standards for ordained leadership. **This is an encouraging sign of renewal.** ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959/80 "2002-04-23T13:43:05Z")
You think Christians are bad on gays, go to Saudi Arabia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-jesus-no-peace/104959.md?page=5)