# No King of Wales? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 18, 2007, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-king-of-wales/388494 "2007-01-18T19:23:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-king-of-wales/388494/1 "2007-01-18T19:23:12Z")
Just wondering, did a British Monarch ever title themselves as King of Wales? I’ve found [Gruffydd ap Llywelyn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruffydd_ap_Llywelyn), whose claim was backed by the English and the [Laws in Wales Acts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_in_Wales_Acts_1535%E2%80%931542) centuries after this. Why did British monarchs claim to be Kings of Ireland, Scotland and of course England, but Wales was simply swallowed up as part of England? The Welsh seemed less troublesome than the Irish and Scottish, was it simply convenience? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-king-of-wales/388494/2 "2007-01-18T19:37:33Z")
Wales considered itself a Princedom before the English took it over. Back in those days there were Soveriegn Princes (think Monaco) Dukes, and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-king-of-wales/388494/3 "2007-01-18T19:55:02Z")
The Welsh term for a native monarch was _brenin_, and this was translated variously into Latin and English, but more often as _princeps_ than as _rex_. It’s important to remember that only briefly, from 1058-63 under Gruffydd ap Llewellyn, was Wales ever united under a single ruler. The Kings/Princes of Gwynnedd, in the northeast, tended to claim authority over the rest, and certainly held out the longest against the English, but there were numerous Welsh principalities: Dyved, Ceredigion, Powys (later divided into Powys Fadog and Powys Wenwynwyn), Gwent, Morganwg. Though having a small realm, the _brenin_ was a full-fledged independent monarch. But it would be reasonable to see his land as a principality like Lichtenstein or Monaco, rather than a full-bore kingdom. And hence the title Prince stuck. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-king-of-wales/388494/4 "2007-01-18T21:06:46Z")
From John Davies’s history of Wales. A little bit of the Welsh edition followed by a more extended cite from his own translation. The word for king is _brenin_. Prince is _tywysog_. Lord is _arglwydd_. It is worth noting that the word for “prince” in Latin, English, and Welsh would be better translated as “leader” than “king’s son” at this period. Ar fwy nag un achlysur, fel _rex_ y cyfeiria Owain Gwynedd ato’i hun, a hyd at 1200 bu croniclwyr Lloegr yn defnyddio’r gair hwnnw wrth sôn am reolwyr Cymru. Ond yr oedd tuedd gynyddol i ddefnyddio’r gair _princeps_ (tywysog) yn hytrach na _rex_ (brenin) wrth sôn am y prif reolwyr Cymreig. (Hanes Cymru, pp. 123–4). On more than one occasion, Owain Gwynedd referred to himself as _rex_ and in denoting Welsh rulers English chroniclers would continue to use the word up until about 1200. But in referring to the leading rulers of Wales, there was an increasing tendency to use _princeps_ (prince) rather than _rex_ (king). [examples follow] These titles are important, for they provide virtually the only evidence of the way in which the Welsh rulers viewed themselves and of the way in which their status was interpreted by the outside world. The change from king to prince did not necessarily mean a change in status. There had been a time when there were many kings in Wales. There would only be two princes – one in Gwynedd and one in Deheubarth; the other rules had to be content with the title lord, much to the chagrin of Gwenwynwyn of Powys. (A History of Wales, 128–9)