# "No man can kill me." ..."I am no man."... Lets talk semantics, J.R.R. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 14, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801 "2012-03-14T23:23:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Super\_Kapowzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Super\_Kapowzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Kapowzler)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/1 "2012-03-14T23:23:08Z")
Dear Fans: LOTR is a lie. 'Means the Elf, the Gnome, the Halflings, Ents, Unlaiden Swallows, and everything from Africanized Killer Bees to Wishbone with a vial of Hanta in his maw would? Shittin’ me? Seriously. Let me consult my DM Guide… Yup, says right nere, "No man can kill the f-er, and like Armor +15 and shit. And driving all 9 off Weathertop with a sword and a torch, 'cuz “No man can kill me”, (but I’m afraid of men with swords and fire, because if my cloak burns, I will be released from Sauron’s enslavement?). And the ending, JarJarTolkien, nice that you have an army of dead; undefeatable shit. Seems to me, Salmon would have a shitload of dead “Orak Haiku” that he could have done the same thing…Oh, wait, then we would have the setup of Wolverine VS dude from Patriot Games, both immortal, fighting to the death in a battle where they both can’t die, by definition. I don’t tend to stutter when I write my middle initial, bitch. Longbottom. ---
**Author:** ![koeeoaddi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/koeeoaddi/32/408_2.png) [@koeeoaddi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koeeoaddi)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/2 "2012-03-14T23:54:13Z")
That was… That was… Thank you, **Super Kapowzler**. and shit. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/3 "2012-03-14T23:55:45Z")
Hey SK, it’s just like Shakespeare. “No man born of woman . . .” and MacBeth gets his ass handed to him by MacDuff who was “from his mother’s womb untimely ripp’d” and shit ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/4 "2012-03-15T00:01:29Z")
He is the chosen one who will “bring balance” to the force - Star Wars See that is the thing about prophecies, they are tricksy little bitches that often turn on semantics. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/5 "2012-03-15T00:35:23Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Hey SK, it’s just like Shakespeare. “No man born of woman . . .” and MacBeth gets his ass handed to him by MacDuff who was “from his mother’s womb untimely ripp’d” > > and shit I read that’s where JRR got the idea- he thought the “Hey, I was C-sectioned, and lookie over there at those people dressed up as trees!” interpretation was a cop-out, so he decided to have a prophecy twist that was techincally true. Also the woods really did get up and attack people. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/6 "2012-03-15T00:41:02Z")
[https://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written/msg/be5ccc2deb4d4142?hl=en](https://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written/msg/be5ccc2deb4d4142?hl=en) 'If Eowyn and the Witch-King had been pedants like the herb-master of Minas Tirith, the dialogue might have gone more like this: “You fool, no living man may harm me.” “_Distinguo_, Sir, I am not _vir_ but _femina._ Prepare to die.” “Excuse me, your Westron is so imprecise. I did not mean _vir_, I meant _homo_.” “Ah, point taken! In that case, permit me to point out that Meriadoc, who is not _homo_ but _dimidiulus,_ a Halfling, has just introduced an Arnorian blade into your knee.” ’ ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/7 "2012-03-15T00:49:20Z")
Have people missed the fact that the Witch-King fell in the first place because Meriadoc stabbed him in the back of the knee with his sword? The Witch-King died at the hands of a _womanp_ and a _hobbit_. But not a man. As such, there’s another literary precedent besides _Macbeth_. Have a look at the death of Patroclus in the _Iliad_. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/8 "2012-03-15T02:22:02Z")
Isn’t **grube** posting in a **Super Kapowzler** thread one of the signs of the apocalypse? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/9 "2012-03-15T02:39:18Z")
The prophecy (uttered by Glorfindel, so not anyone infallible) was not “no man can harm the Witch King,” but “not by the hand of man shall he fall.” Any man of suitable will and capability could have harmed the Witch King all along. What Glorfindel foresaw (presuming his utterance was actually prescient and not just lucky) was that by happenstance the hand that would cause the Witch King to fall wouldn’t belong to a man. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/10 "2012-03-15T03:46:24Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > The prophecy (uttered by Glorfindel, so not anyone infallible) was not “no man can harm the Witch King,” but “not by the hand of man shall he fall.” Any man of suitable will and capability could have harmed the Witch King all along. What Glorfindel foresaw (presuming his utterance was actually prescient and not just lucky) was that by happenstance the hand that would cause the Witch King to fall wouldn’t belong to a man. The thing is, in a place like Middle Earth that shouldn’t give the Witch King much confidence in being invulnerable. I mean, there’s plenty of elves and dwarves running around the place, even if you don’t take women into account and don’t know about hobbits. (There’s wizards, ents, eagles, and so on as well but they may not need to be considered for various reasons.) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/11 "2012-03-15T05:35:18Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Have people missed the fact that the Witch-King fell in the first place because Meriadoc stabbed him in the back of the knee with his sword? The Witch-King died at the hands of a _womanp_ and a _hobbit_. But not a man. Did you say the Witch King was killed by a womprat? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/12 "2012-03-15T09:45:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Did you say the Witch King was killed by a womprat? Well, he wasn’t much bigger than two meters. 😛 CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/13 "2012-03-15T11:49:54Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > The prophecy (uttered by Glorfindel, so not anyone infallible) was not “no man can harm the Witch King,” but “not by the hand of man shall he fall.” So kick him in the nuts, fanboy. Regards, Shodan 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/14 "2012-03-15T12:01:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Did you say the Witch King was killed by a womprat? Certainly not. Luke killed them. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/15 "2012-03-15T12:33:04Z")
Okay, I have a (possibly foolish) question. Did the Witch-King even know about this prophecy? Or was it something that only our heroes were privy to? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/16 "2012-03-15T12:35:08Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > [https://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written/msg/be5ccc2deb4d4142?hl=en](https://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written/msg/be5ccc2deb4d4142?hl=en) > > 'If Eowyn and the Witch-King had been pedants like the herb-master > of Minas Tirith, the dialogue might have gone more like this: > > “You fool, no living man may harm me.” > > “_Distinguo_, Sir, I am not _vir_ but _femina._ Prepare to die.” > > “Excuse me, your Westron is so imprecise. I did not mean _vir_, I > meant _homo_.” > > “Ah, point taken! In that case, permit me to point out that > Meriadoc, who is not _homo_ but _dimidiulus,_ a Halfling, has > just introduced an Arnorian blade into your knee.” ’ Haven’t we had games here where we rewrite scenes in the idiom of another writer (as above)? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/17 "2012-03-15T13:05:49Z")
> [@chrisk](#): > > Okay, I have a (possibly foolish) question. Did the Witch-King even know about this prophecy? Or was it something that only our heroes were privy to? I don’t think either Eowyn or Merry knew the prophecy – they were just fightn’ the Witch King and happened to kill him. Orc: [Winkie Guard] You KILLED him![/WG] Eowyn: [Doriothy Gale] I didn’t mean to![/DG] Orc: [WG]All hail Eowyn! She killed the Witch King! Take his broomstick![/WG] Eowyn: It’s a dead flying dragon thingie. I don’t _want_ to take it. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/18 "2012-03-15T13:31:56Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The thing is, in a place like Middle Earth that shouldn’t give the Witch King much confidence in being invulnerable. I mean, there’s plenty of elves and dwarves running around the place, even if you don’t take women into account and don’t know about hobbits. (There’s wizards, ents, eagles, and so on as well but they may not need to be considered for various reasons.) Sure, but _at that moment_, with what he thought was a man in front of him, he had plenty of reason to be confident. Until she took off her helmet and was all YAH BITCH and then Merry shanked him. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/19 "2012-03-15T14:20:32Z")
I wonder if Glorfindel was just restating the hubris that the Witch King uttered at that moment - that he felt he was undefeatable by ‘any man’ (global) - and ‘most’ men would have cowered at him anyway in that instant - while Merry and Eowyn did not - making them not just “any man” but something a bit more special (leaving aside the in your face fact that niether of them were ‘men’). Sauron himself was only defeated in the first war due to a ‘wild swing’ and not in the more conventional sense - had the swing not taken the Ring finger, then he would not have been defeated. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/20 "2012-03-15T14:21:53Z")
Judge: “You’re a fool. No weapon forged can stop me.” And then…Super Kapowzler! right in the kisser! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801.md?page=2)