# "No man can kill me." ..."I am no man."... Lets talk semantics, J.R.R. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 14, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801 "2012-03-14T23:23:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/21 "2012-03-15T14:30:19Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Sure, but _at that moment_, with what he thought was a man in front of him, he had plenty of reason to be confident. Until she took off her helmet and was all YAH BITCH and then Merry shanked him. I have been a Tolkien fan for decades. Nevertheless, I would enjoy reading your rewrite of the story! šŸ†’ ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/22 "2012-03-15T14:51:54Z")
I have been a Tolkien fan for decades. Nonetheless, I find ā€œ[How _Lord of the Rings_ **Should** Have Ended](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU)ā€ to be at least as plausible as the plot of Books 2-6. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/23 "2012-03-15T15:09:10Z")
I used to be the Witch King and then I took an Arnorian blade in the knee. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/24 "2012-03-15T15:18:05Z")
As for Weathertop: A) Even Aragorn is a little confused about why the Nazgul decided not to press the issue B) The Nazgul are afraid of fire, presumably in part because it has the ability to damage/destroy their physical shapes, which means they have to limp all ghosty back to Mordor to get new cloaks. (Witness: They got crushed by a flood at the Ford of Bruinen, and while it didnā€™t KILL they, they were certainly deeply inconvenienced.) C) They figured they were done there anyway - ringbearer stabbed with Morgul Blade. Heā€™ll be a wraith and deliver the ring in a couple of days. Itā€™s not their fault that Hobbits are tough. (and poorly documented.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/25 "2012-03-15T15:25:41Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I mean, thereā€™s plenty of elves and dwarves running around the place, even if you donā€™t take women into account and donā€™t know about hobbits. I wonder if he could be trampled to death by a manā€™s horse. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/26 "2012-03-15T15:39:38Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > ā€¦(Witness: They got crushed by a flood at the Ford of Bruinen, and while it didnā€™t KILL they, they were certainly deeply inconvenienced.) > ā€¦ Raging torrent of enchanted water, traffic jam, same olā€™ same olā€™. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/27 "2012-03-15T15:52:49Z")
"Havenā€™t we had games here where we rewrite scenes in the idiom of another writer (as above)? " Um there was a little thread called ā€œIf LOTR had been written by somebody elseā€ [or words to that effect]. I think it was the longest and best on the boards. Yes the witch-king knew the prophecy (donā€™t have book handy for cite) & was way too sure of himself when fighting against men. as for the Undead - Aragorn could get the zombie Oathbreakers to fight for him because he was Isildurā€™s heir. It was a one time deal, then their oath was fulfilled & they could rest in peace. In the books, they helped capture the Corsair fleet, they did NOT fight at Minas Tirith. I could rant against movie version, in Skaldā€™s absence, but donā€™t have the time. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/28 "2012-03-15T15:56:10Z")
I wonder if Aragorn could have curb-stomped the Witch King to death and been all ā€œTHAT WAS NO HAND.ā€ ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/29 "2012-03-15T16:13:39Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Sure, but _at that moment_, with what he thought was a man in front of him, he had plenty of reason to be confident. Until she took off her helmet and was all YAH BITCH and then Merry shanked him. Wow. If you can keep that up for entire sections, that would be my newest favorite read. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/30 "2012-03-15T16:42:18Z")
Lasciel, and glee, Iā€™m flattered. Perhaps iā€™ll try it! šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/31 "2012-03-15T17:15:47Z")
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=138905](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=138905) I have it bookmarked - one of my all time favorites! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/32 "2012-03-15T17:57:54Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > As for Weathertop: > > A) Even Aragorn is a little confused about why the Nazgul decided not to press the issue > B) The Nazgul are afraid of fire, presumably in part because it has the ability to damage/destroy their physical shapes, which means they have to limp all ghosty back to Mordor to get new cloaks. (Witness: They got crushed by a flood at the Ford of Bruinen, and while it didnā€™t KILL they, they were certainly deeply inconvenienced.) > C) They figured they were done there anyway - ringbearer stabbed with Morgul Blade. Heā€™ll be a wraith and deliver the ring in a couple of days. Itā€™s not their fault that Hobbits are tough. (and poorly documented.) True, also it seems like Weathertop had some protective magics left, so that the Ringwraiths were a tad weaker there. So, having done their job, and being faced with fire and thus a long walk home in useless spirit form, they booked out. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/33 "2012-03-15T17:59:12Z")
Iā€™m doing a horrible thing and ripping this off from a poster named Darth Ember on another board: " To: Witch-King From: Council of Vague Prophecies RE: Your invulnerability Dear sir, We regret to inform you that prophecies are non-refundable. You are of course an important customer and we value your patronage. However, fine print on all Vague Prophecies ā„¢ expressly stipulates that should a loophole be found, all warranties are null and void. We hope we may be of service to you again, should you resume corporeal existence at any time in the future. Until this eventuality, we are, Yrs, The Council of Vague Prophecies. (ā€œKnowing the unknowableā€¦ for you!ā€) " cause I thought it was a little brilliant editing to add: I think I remember reading that Tolkien didnā€™t like how the prophecies in Macbeth went down, so he invented real moving trees, and the Eowyn-Merry takedown partly in response to them. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/34 "2012-03-15T19:26:25Z")
> [@simster](#): > > I wonder if Glorfindel was just restating the hubris that the Witch King uttered at that moment - that he felt he was undefeatable by ā€˜any manā€™ (global) - and ā€˜mostā€™ men would have cowered at him anyway in that instant - while Merry and Eowyn did not - making them not just ā€œany manā€ but something a bit more special (leaving aside the in your face fact that niether of them were ā€˜menā€™). > > Sauron himself was only defeated in the first war due to a ā€˜wild swingā€™ and not in the more conventional sense - had the swing not taken the Ring finger, then he would not have been defeated. Psst, **simster**. Around here, most people talk about the books, not the movies. Especially when the thread title is addressed directly at J.R.R. (I mean, if you voluntarily use ā€˜hubrisā€™ in a post, you probably would enjoy the books. Get to it, son. Get to it.) ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/35 "2012-03-15T23:24:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > True, also it seems like Weathertop had some protective magics left, so that the Ringwraiths were a tad weaker there. I seem to recall the suggestion also being made that they were weaker when a long way from home base, and they were pretty far from Mordor at that point. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/36 "2012-03-18T13:26:29Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > The prophecy (uttered by Glorfindelā€¦ I just want to comment that I misread this as ā€œThe prophecy uttered by _ **Garfunkel** _ā€¦ā€ and figured it must have been written on the subway walls and tenement halls of Middle-Earth, šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/37 "2012-03-18T13:48:51Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Psst, **simster**. Around here, most people talk about the books, not the movies. Especially when the thread title is addressed directly at J.R.R. (I mean, if you voluntarily use ā€˜hubrisā€™ in a post, you probably would enjoy the books. Get to it, son. Get to it.) hmmm - i have read the books - once, for 2 weeks in 2008 - not sure what part of my post is a reference to the movies at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/38 "2012-03-18T14:27:35Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > As for Weathertop: Thereā€™s really no excuse for Weathertop, and Jacksonā€™s failure to omit it or patch it up is one of movieā€™s bigger flaws. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/39 "2012-03-18T15:55:38Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I just want to comment that I misread this as ā€œThe prophecy uttered by _ **Garfunkel** _ā€¦ā€ and figured it must have been written on the subway walls and tenement halls of Middle-Earth, šŸ™‚ In _Bored of the Rings_, that character does indeed get called _Garfinkel_. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/40 "2012-03-18T17:21:46Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I just want to comment that I misread this as ā€œThe prophecy uttered by _ **Garfunkel** _ā€¦ā€ and figured it must have been written on the subway walls and tenement halls of Middle-Earth, šŸ™‚ ā€œFrodo lives!ā€ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801.md?page=3)