# "No man can kill me." ..."I am no man."... Lets talk semantics, J.R.R. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 14, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801 "2012-03-14T23:23:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tadtooornamental](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@tadtooornamental](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tadtooornamental)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/41 "2012-03-19T01:15:34Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > Yes the witch-king knew the prophecy (don’t have book handy for cite) & was way too sure of himself when fighting against men. I DO have my book handy: pg 114, ROTK, Ballantine paperback circa 2001: " ‘Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!’ " (Note use of the word hinder, and not kill.) "Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. ‘But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him.’ " And further on, (pg 116) “Merry’s sword had stabbed him from behind . . . " and " . . . with the last of her strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her.” ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/42 "2012-03-19T02:31:09Z")
Ah, **Super Kapowzler** , never change. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/43 "2012-03-19T05:37:18Z")
> [@simster](#): > > hmmm - i have read the books - once, for 2 weeks in 2008 - not sure what part of my post is a reference to the movies at this point. I still haven’t gotten around to reading the books, but, through osmosis, I believe Sauron was not defeated by having his ring finger or arm chopped off. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/44 "2012-03-19T14:03:06Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I still haven’t gotten around to reading the books, but, through osmosis, I believe Sauron was not defeated by having his ring finger or arm chopped off. From Wikipedia - > [@](#): > > They allied themselves with Gil-galad and marched in the War of the Last Alliance, in which Isildur cut the One Ring from Sauron’s hand. This is consistent thru a number of Wiki links - ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/45 "2012-03-19T14:46:12Z")
Sauron, after 7 years of siege in Mordor came forth and battled Gil-galad (Elven king) and Elendil (High King of Gondor and Anor) on the slope of Mt Doom. There Sauron killed both kings but fell at which point Isildur claims the ring and Sauron’s spirit flees. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/46 "2012-03-19T14:47:11Z")
> [@simster](#): > > From Wikipedia - > > This is consistent thru a number of Wiki links - Yeah, but unlike in the movie where they knocked his fingers off with a lucky blow, in the books they managed to kill his physical body in the battle and went back for the ring afterward. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/47 "2012-03-19T15:00:43Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > Yeah, but unlike in the movie where they knocked his fingers off with a lucky blow, in the books they managed to kill his physical body in the battle and went back for the ring afterward. I see - is this covered in the books proper or as part of the larger works? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/48 "2012-03-19T16:27:49Z")
Books proper - Council of Elrond if I remember correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/49 "2012-03-19T16:37:37Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > Yeah, but unlike in the movie where they knocked his fingers off with a lucky blow, in the books they managed to kill his physical body in the battle and went back for the ring afterward. Pretty much. The combined might of Gil-galad High King of the Noldor and Elendil High King of the Dunedain was required, and they both died doing the deed (with Gil-galad’s spear Aeglos being consumed by flame, and Elendil’s blade Narsil shattering.) But they cast Sauron down. Isildur then did his surgical work with the shards of Narsil. There is some question as to whether or not “casting him down” meant killing his body. But later JRRT writings suggested it was so, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/50 "2012-03-19T18:50:45Z")
quick LOTR questions I’ll post here, since this is the only active LOTR thread & I don’t think I need to start a new one - -What happened to the sons of Elrond? did they stay in Middle Earth? or sail away? -Did Frodo ever tell anyone that he didn’t destroy the ring? Folks must have asked, hey how’d you lose that finger? wonder what he told them. my own theory is that he felt he failed at the end and his guilt added to his PTSD. ---
**Author:** ![Wilson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@Wilson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wilson)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/51 "2012-03-19T18:57:01Z")
Merry stabbed first! ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/52 "2012-03-19T18:58:24Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > … and then Merry shanked him. I love this turn of phrase, as it highlights the little known fact that the Barrow Downs are the ruined remains of an Angmarese concentration camp for defeated Arnorians, and the blade that was the “work of Westernesse” was a jailhouse shiv fashioned out of a stolen spoon and vengeful magic (that’s why it’s small/short enough for a Hobbit to use). _…glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. That all those hours spent quietly scraping a dull spoon into a stabby point after lights-out would finally come to sweet, sweet fruition. And the oatmeal they slopped out for breakfast, lunch and dinner. How he would loathe Angmarean oatmeal!_ ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/53 "2012-03-20T02:21:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > True, also it seems like Weathertop had some protective magics left, so that the Ringwraiths were a tad weaker there. So, having done their job, and being faced with fire and thus a long walk home in useless spirit form, they booked out. And there were only 5 there, not 9. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/54 "2012-03-21T13:58:53Z")
I’ve got to agree that’s some silly semantic parsing. If it’s just the witch-king being arrogant and has no real justification, that’s one thing. But for it to be an actual charm or something, that’s pretty silly. He infests a world that includes Elves, Dwarfs, Hobbits, etc, and all he’s worried about is _Men_? Witch-King: “No living Man can hinder me.” Aragorn: “Oh, well, it’s not my intention to intrude or obstruct your passing. I merely wish to terminate your existence. Then you can carry on unhindered.” Alt Aragorn: “Yes, but you see I brought all these ghosts of oath-breakers with me, and you see, they are not living.” Alt Aragorn: “Well, I thought of that. Have you met my friends, Legolas and Gimli?” Alt Aragorn: “You wish.” > [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > -Did Frodo ever tell anyone that he didn’t destroy the ring? Folks must have asked, hey how’d you lose that finger? wonder what he told them. my own theory is that he felt he failed at the end and his guilt added to his PTSD. “Frodo, of the nine fingers, and the ring of dooooom.” In that version, everyone seemed to know what happened. I don’t think he has to claim failure, and I’m sure he explained that when he got to the top of Mount Doom, Gollum intercepted and took the fateful plunge with the ring. Not exactly a glorious victory for Frodo, but he got the ring all the way there, and the ring was destroyed, so close enough for hand grenades. But you’re probably right. I seem to recall Frodo was haunted forever afterwards. Didn’t he go to the West with the others rather early? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/55 "2012-03-21T14:28:47Z")
That was more due to the lingering effects of his wound from the Ring-wraith blade, I thought. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/56 "2012-03-21T15:54:41Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > That was more due to the lingering effects of his wound from the Ring-wraith blade, I thought. Yes, over the next few years he was repeatedly ill on three anniversaries: of the stabbing on Weathertop, of being bitten by Shelob, and of the destruction of the Ring. Not so much over being haunted with grief over his failure, in the last case, but because “all is dark and empty” since the Ring was destroyed. Frodo went to the Havens just two and a half years after the downfall of Sauron. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/57 "2012-03-21T20:46:36Z")
I think it was just general overall trauma-- You can’t pin it down to _just_ the destruction of the Ring, or _just_ the Morgul-knife wound, or _just_ any one other thing. Nor, I think, can you really even separate out those events at all. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/58 "2012-03-21T22:22:47Z")
Furthermore, Frodo was deeply and permanently affected by having borne the Ring so long. His burden got heavier the closer he came to Mordor. Even once the Ring was destroyed, he recovered to but not beyond a certain extent. To quote the Professor: > [@](#): > > There are some things that time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep … that have taken hold. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801/59 "2012-03-22T00:34:41Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > I love this turn of phrase, as it highlights the little known fact that the Barrow Downs are the ruined remains of an Angmarese concentration camp for defeated Arnorians, and the blade that was the “work of Westernesse” was a jailhouse shiv fashioned out of a stolen spoon and vengeful magic (that’s why it’s small/short enough for a Hobbit to use). > > _…glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. That all those hours spent quietly scraping a dull spoon into a stabby point after lights-out would finally come to sweet, sweet fruition. And the oatmeal they slopped out for breakfast, lunch and dinner. How he would loathe Angmarean oatmeal!_ Okay, no more bringing Belkar into LOTR discussionws, Mister! :mad: 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-man-can-kill-me-i-am-no-man-lets-talk-semantics-j-r-r/615801.md?page=2)