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Oh the irony. It burns.

Tuba, you amended your original snarky response about all this by opening a whole new thread with a kinder gentler OP, so I know that you’re capable of putting things in a diplomatic and professional way. It seems to me that one of the most disputational and ugly people in this forum is quite often someone you’d least suspect. I think you need, at some point, to come to the realization that this is a business now and we are its customers.

I don’t mean this in any “customer is always right” way. I mean it in a “management is always professional” way. There’s no reason to publically humiliate people with condescending language and imperatives that you use like a whip. Especially when that is exactly what you’re telling them not to do.

I, for one, would pay extra for the option of switching off avatars (if the board gets them.)

Perhaps this could be included in the super deluxe package.

Hey, maybe there should be some sort of ala carte picing structure. Each option could have its own price, and you chose the ones you want.

Ads on----free
Adds off —$10.00
Avatars on—$5.00
Avatars off—$10.00

and so on.

Take it to the Pit, please, Liberal. Criticisms about other posters, whether staff or not, don’t belong in this forum.

Thanks for the explanation. I never saw the ads (and one way or another, I never will), but the whole deal upset me anyway.

The two-tier posting system sounds great. I have a suggestion about that, and from experience with other online communities I know that it will never ever happen, but I have to give it a try: any chance at all that it could be made invisible who has paid and who hasn’t?

As for the other suggestions, most of them make me want to throw up just as much as moving, noisy banner ads do.

Avatars
No. I don’t want to see them. They can be disabled!
OK, fine. The bandwidth thing. They can be externally stored!
OK, great. But the thing is that the lack of avatars is one of the things that makes this board special. If we put in avatars, we attract the kind of people who like avatars, and like the elitist bitch I am I just don’t want them here. People who like silly little images with their posts have plenty of message boards to choose from; why do we need to have them here?

The reputation system
God no. Do you remember those Doper Award things (well, I don’t as I wasn’t here, but I’ve heard about them afterwards)? Remember why we’re not allowed to do them again? Because all they do is foster resentment and ill will. Let’s not turn this place into a popularity contest. You know what will happen. “That’s a negative vote for you, bub!” “Well, my green bar is bigger than your green bar!”

The multi-tiered system sounds terrific, though. I’d probably pay the max not because I’d be interested in any of the features involved (I still can’t fathom why anyone would want a custom title badly enough to even suggest it) but because I wanted to support this place. Many people in the past (before the board went to pay) offered to help out; this is a great legal way to make that happen.

EXACTLY! Isn’t part of “fighting ignorance” attacking arguments on their merits? I would think the ability to label people “This poster is good!” “This poster is BAD!” runs contrary to these goals.

We shouldn’t be about finding ways to lump dopers into different groups.

I don’t personally have a big problem with avatars – another MB I surf uses them, and I find they don’t really bother me. However, let me reiterate what I said above: we’re a niche message board (as is every message board, really). We’re substance over style. Whatever we can do to emphasize our differences from other message boards is good. With no avatars, we’ll turn off potential members, sure. But I think we’ll attract more members of the kind that are interested in our niche product.

Of course I’m talking out of my ass, because I don’t know much about marketing, but I really don’t think “avatars are the norm” is a strong reason for having them here.

Oddly enough, I don’t mind a rep point system if the green bar is turned off. The other board I surf has done that, and the rep point system has evolved into a way to say “hey good point! I agree!” without cluttering up the thread. It’s still personally rewarding to get a rep point, but because no one else knows about it, there are no dick-size wars. However, I suppose I can imaging people being dicks in GD with rep points, so…

Ed that was a great explanation and I like the ideas you are throwing out.

Good luck finding the best path forward.

– puts Cyberhwk in the “doesn’t want to be put in a category” category –

:stuck_out_tongue:

I’ve been on the “net” since Reagan was in office, I’ve set up and run websites since before Windows 95 using http daemons, and I run several websites and message boards for commercial entities, the smallest of which is more than $1B in revenue, since before the SDMB ever jumped from AOL. I’ve written perhaps a hundred thousand lines of custom PHP/MySQL code to run database-driven websites. I’ve run my own board for nearly 7 years with better than a 99.5% uptime and getting on half a million posts. I assure you I do in fact understand what a website is. Those who know me IRL will vouch for my credentials.

People have been foot-dragging on the Net since there has been a net, for a variety of reasons both legitimate and non. I remember distinctly debates on USENET over whether or not signatures should be allowed, for most of the same reasons against avatars right not: they distract, they take up bandwidth, etc. I remember arguments against images at all on the web, from some people who thought Lynx (the text-based web browser) was supposed to be an end in itself, not just a useful “other” tool. I remember people who fought Java and Javascript, claiming it would be “the death o’ the Net.” The same with Flash, the same with Acrobat (“but we’ll never be able to search Acrobat files!!!11111one”), etc.

The web is many things, but one thing it is is a visual interface. If the SDMB becomes a dry, text-only technical journal-type board, and continues on that way, it will negatively impact the rate of addition of new members.

Shoot, if people want a dry and light-bodied experience, that can be done via vBulletin. I have a vBulletin style called “Stealth” which turns off ALL graphics and makes a stark black-and-white layout perfect for browsing from work. From my latest stats, about 1/15 of my active members are always in “Stealth” mode, which means either they always browse from work, or they really want the barest web experience possible. But that is a minority of members.

I understand that some don’t like avatars. Shoot, I personally don’t even like many avatars - I banned animated ones from my site (although I don’t enforce it), but if they became the “norm” on other sites I would allow them. So long as folks who don’t want to see them can turn them off.

So if I understand the current argument: avatars suck, and it doesn’t matter if you can turn them off, and it doesn’t matter if they don’t add appreciable bandwidth or server load, and it doesn’t matter if most popular message boards allow them, and it doesn’t matter if people don’t want a crinkly-dry academic experience, and it doesn’t matter if the SDMB Staff tries to keep the board current with peer boards in terms of look and feel of the net? And we’re going to personally attack anyone who disagrees with that opinion? That’s not a constructive position, but then what do I know?

Okay. In the board’s tradition, I will leave a link to there. Thank you.

Yes.

No, and you’ll note that only one of the anti-avatar people sunk to that level.

I don’t care what other message boards do. Message boards are special because they don’t do what everyone else does. That’s the whole point. What I want is a message board that attracts people who prefer substance to style, and a lack of avatars certainly helps there.

I, too, would hope that the discussion over use of any particular feature of message board software could occur in a tone that would be acceptable in places other than back-alleys, seedy bars, and after-school playgrounds.

I, personally, dislike the idea of avatars. I think that this site’s interest for me has always been the focus on the words, not the personalities (per se) of the posters. The personalities and habits eventually get exposed in their writings (don’t they, Hal? :smiley: ). The minimalist, mostly textual approach of this board essentially forces your attention to the words. Most of the users here DON’T like distraction from the words, or else what was all that uproar over ads at the top of the screen about? I find it ironic that several here who were all up in arms about the flashy banner ad thingies are quite happy to have swimming fish, or laughing clowns or whatever littering their page next to every post. I would like to think that any connection anyone feels with me here has to do with what I write in these threads, and not the fact that I’ve got a cool new .bmp of the latest movie icon next to my name.

Nevertheless, if avatars are popular, if having avatars is a draw, and if avatars can easily be turned off, won’t overload our server and otherwise can be kept from making my SDMB experience less enjoyable, my response is, “ok, <shrug> fine.” But, then, I felt that way about the banner ads, too.

I think there is a deeper and more unhappy problem that has yet to be discussed here. The main reason advanced for allowing things like avatars (and other popular message board features) is because they are a draw. That is, they will make more people who stumble across our little community want to stay. Now, to some extent, I would appreciate that. I have felt that, in the years since we went to Pay to Post, the general quality of the Board has gone slowly down. I see fewer threads where the people posting are people with rich knowledge about subject areas, or people who are deep thinkers offering cogent arguments or helpful thoughts. Instead, it seems to me like we have a regular cast of characters who tend to post the same thing on different days, and many of whom aren’t exactly the most thoughtful about what they want to say. The experience isn’t as “rich” as it used to be, in my opinion, and I notice that several of the older hands simply don’t seem to post here any more on anything like a regular basis. That’s sad.

But having said that, I would be driven away if this place becomes “popular.” I do NOT want to wade through the sort of drivel that one has to read at most message boards. I have tried to participate in other boards, and I routinely find myself simply wanting to automate the :rolleyes: smiley as my answer to most everything posted. Let’s face it: without feeling the least bit “superior” or “elitest” we here have a special quality, that is, we are abnormally interested
in very obscure and usually quite intellectually stimulating topics (the odd sheep or felching thread aside :stuck_out_tongue: ). Even our discussions of sports topics (as unintellectual a topic in real life as you are going to find, drawing as they do to the water cooler at work all sorts of morons who endlessly discuss, in less than erudite terms, the shortcomings of their favorite teams’ coaches, players and owners) is out of the norm, often filled with quality statistical analysis, obscure rules references, and fun trivial facts known to very few. In short we aren’t just average joes off the street. We are out in left field, or we approach things sideways, or we are, frankly, completely off the map!

And that, to me, is a good thing.

I don’t want to be part of an experience that is “popular.” I don’t want drive bys, I don’t want childish rants (any more than we already get from time to time!), I don’t want people who are here to discuss endlessly the latest and greatest in cool video games, or who are interested in swapping ringtones, or any of that stuff. And that’s what we would have to deal with if we became “cool” and “popular” and such, with avatars, and all sorts of other bells and whistles we have, to this point, eschewed. Trust me when I say that, for that sort of experience, I wouldn’t pay anything, wouldn’t even stick around. :frowning:

Which brings up a much deeper subject that no one is yet discussing, quite surprisingly. The point of becoming popular seems to be to increase revenue from the Board. That concerns me.

This notion that this board must, somehow, become a cash cow for the new owners is quite discomforting. I’ve always thought that the SDMB was an afterthought of the Reader. That is, a place to play provided by the Reader because it enhanced the experience of the Straight Dope column, thereby ensuring the greater success of that column (now website, really - who reads paper newspapers any more?). I was always under the impression that our membership fees were just enough to manage to keep the hamsters (and, since the server upgrade, capybaras) fed and the lights on. I never realized that the owners of The Straight Dope wanted the Message Board to be part of the overall Straight Dope revenue stream. And I’m not sure I like that thought at all.

Yes.

I can never tell if you’re referring to me or someone else.

Well I can’t speak for others, but I never was up in arms about the banners, because I spent a very minimal time blocking them (about 30 seconds), and never saw them again.

There was a Pit thread about this shortly ago, but I don’t think that the real reason(s) why many people left was/were addressed or discussed fully. And probably never will be.

I think this is controlled by Moderation and segregation to a large extent. That is, not allowing stupid-assed shit in GQ (like the daily “Bush is teh evil” hijack or snipe), and by diverting mindless things like sports into another forum. I think that the Moderation here is up to the task and very capable of running this Board.

Don’t a lot of threads in Cafe Society already suffer from that? Such as the innumerable threads on “Lost” and “American Idol”? And if so, was Cafe Society unintentionally the proverbial camel’s nose, in your opinion?

I think you were correct at one time. Things are most likely changing, according to Ed.

Thanks to both of you for the explanation. This makes sense to me and I think it is a valid argument. I know in the wish list threads that Avatars receive a few votes (as opposed to a Sports & Games forum that gets many votes and shameless begging*) so while I don’t like avatars and hate animated ones, I didn’t really care, as I knew how easy it was to turn off.

I think your objections are on the elitist side and just to show you my own foibles, I think overall I agree with you, proving I am also on the elitist side. :wink:

On the rating system, this just sounds like a terrible idea. What use would it even be?

Is your reason similar to the ones above?

Jim

  • Okay, most of the shameless begging has been me, others are much more mature about it.

I’ve been on several other boards with advanced levels of discourse that do, in fact, have avatars.

I feel confident – highly confident – that avatars won’t in any way lower the level of discourse here at the SDMB. I don’t think it works that way at all – the idea that avatars bring in loads of riff-raff just isn’t correct. Moderation fights off riff-raff, not a lack of avatars.
.

The discussion on avatars misses what I see as a crucial point.

We keep talking about being able to turn off avatars so that they are not seen. Yet we also talk of attracting new people to the Dope. Unless I am unaware of the technique, visitors to a board cannot use the board to turn off avatars. They will see them in all their horror.

Unlike bordelond, I do not think this is compatible with our image or that it will not lower the discourse. Maybe MPSIMS would continue to work fine with avatars, but not GQ. Nobody on the net old enough to be allowed to be a member can associate avatars with a site that provides the best possible quality of answers to all questions.

What we’re really talking about with this question is whether the SDMB is about GQ and fighting ignorance or whether it’s about MPSIMS and being a community of MMPs.

So yes, absolutely, do I have a philosophical objection to avatars that I don’t see. That we’re even talking about them shows that the Dope has already been split into two incompatible groups. This has nothing to do with modernization or the visual nature of the net. It is an issue of what the core purpose of the boards are.

I vote one way. I understand that other people will vote against me. I’m sure the corporate masters will vote with them. But Ed, do you have a voice in this? What about fighting ignorance, Ed? Is that really to be given up so people can put furries next to their names?

Again, another good explanation. Thank you. You won me over, even though that counts for very little.

Excellent reasons. Well explained. I think it pays to do this as The Power That Be decide our future.

Still think my one time script idea is a good idea, if they allow avatars. I could even do it in less than a hours work without knowing the database, anyone good at SQL and familar with vBulletin should take only 5 minutes.

Jim

Excellent post, Exapno Mapcase. I, too was among the (IMO) large majority of Dopers who really couldn’t care less whether we have banner ads, avatars, ,etc., as long as the board continues to function. But your argument against avatars has swayed my opinion on that particular topic.

Do I feel strongly enough to leave should avatars be allowed? Not at all. But I will now place myself firmly in the “NO” camp (for whatever that’s worth).

When it comes to avatars, DSYoungEsq and Exapno Mapcase laid out compelling arguments against.

I would like to point out that their posts make an equally compelling argument against smileys if you simply substitute “smileys” for “avatars.”

To the anti-avatar crowd: if you use smileys, your posts are every bit as low-brow as you fear avatars would be. This is especially ironic when it comes to DSYoungEsq’s post.

Can we please eliminate smileys based on the exact same reason we don’t have avatars? Pretty please? I really and truly hate them.

ETA: I kinda dig avatars, and even use one on other boards. (NYG logo, of course.) They really are just online “faces”, which greatly increases recognition.

But smileys suck balls, and I refuse to ever use them. They attract a low-class element who can’t convey their meaning through the written word alone. Why would this board want such posters in the first place?