# No more time for debate. Now I am outraged! \[Toronto police shooting\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958 "2013-07-30T23:18:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/41 "2013-08-01T13:24:20Z")
From what I’ve read I can’t imagine that there is a reasonable explanation for the action by the police. I’d like to hear it though. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/42 "2013-08-01T13:25:25Z")
Hear hear. There was absolutely no reason for him to die. regardless of whether he dropped the knife or not, at that point he was absolutely no threat to anyone. Calling his shooting admirable is flat-out disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/43 "2013-08-01T13:30:54Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > As the second video shows unequivocally, he was already on the floor, incapacitated and threatening no one, after the first three. There was NO justification for the last six shots. Is the Police officer liable to get into trouble for this? He’d be in deep shit here in the UK, where every shot fired by a police officer is investigated. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/44 "2013-08-01T13:31:30Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Hear hear. There was absolutely no reason for him to die. regardless of whether he dropped the knife or not, at that point he was absolutely no threat to anyone. Calling his shooting admirable is flat-out disgusting. Well, he did have a deadly weapon, so not quite absolutely no reason. But he wasn’t posing a threat at that moment. Moreover, in spite of having been on a crowded streetcar he hadn’t actually attacked anyone with his deadly weapon. Apparently we need to spend more time training cops that screaming “Drop the knife!” is not what we mean by de-escalation. Use of deadly force is last resort, not first (or second, after screaming.) ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/45 "2013-08-01T13:32:37Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Is the Police officer liable to get into trouble for this? He’d be in deep shit here in the UK, where every shot fired by a police officer is investigated. I hope so. I’m not holding my breath though. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/46 "2013-08-01T13:34:22Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Well, he did have a deadly weapon, so not quite absolutely no reason. But he wasn’t posing a threat at that moment. Moreover, in spite of having been on a crowded streetcar he hadn’t actually attacked anyone with his deadly weapon. Apparently we need to spend more time training cops that screaming “Drop the knife!” is not what we mean by de-escalation. Use of deadly force is last resort, not first (or second, after screaming.) Exactly. He was alone in the streetcar and making no moves to attack anyone - they should have contained the situation rather than blasting away. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/47 "2013-08-01T13:38:29Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The police are not allowed to gun someone down for not following commands. Period. Oh, are we predicting outcomes? I guess it’s possible the officer will face jail time, or have to pay a fine, or get fired – but it’s also possible he’ll be cleared, period. [QUOTE=Bibliovore] Calling his shooting admirable is flat-out disgusting. [/QUOTE] Again, I said it was admirable compared to (a) grappling for the knife, and (b) calling the man a boy; the former would’ve been stupid, the latter is flat-out disgusting. Also flat-out disgusting: _committing suicide by cop_. If he was going to throw his life away, couldn’t he have done it in the privacy of his own home? ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/48 "2013-08-01T13:40:59Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Also flat-out disgusting: _committing suicide by cop_. If he was going to throw his life away, couldn’t he have done it in the privacy of his own home? People who choose suicide-by-cop don’t do it by holding a knife and pacing in an bus. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/49 "2013-08-01T13:42:26Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Oh, are we predicting outcomes? I guess it’s possible the officer will face jail time, or have to pay a fine, or get fired – but it’s also possible he’ll be cleared, period. > > Again, I said it was admirable compared to (a) grappling for the knife, and (b) calling the man a boy; the former would’ve been stupid, the latter is flat-out disgusting. > > Also flat-out disgusting: _committing suicide by cop_. If he was going to throw his life away, couldn’t he have done it in the privacy of his own home? Did he deserve to die? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/50 "2013-08-01T13:43:59Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > People who choose suicide-by-cop don’t do it by holding a knife and pacing in an bus. Cite? After the guy was repeatedly told to drop the knife, he was told he’d be shot by a cop if he took another step forward. He then – took another step forward. Predictability ensued. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/51 "2013-08-01T13:45:15Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Did he deserve to die? If so, why? I wouldn’t say he deserved to die. I’d say he deserved to be tasered. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/52 "2013-08-01T13:51:34Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I wouldn’t say he deserved to die. I’d say he deserved to be tasered. Well on that we can agree. But if he didn’t deserve to die then, does the police officer who killed him deserve to be punished? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/53 "2013-08-01T13:52:34Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > After the guy was repeatedly told to drop the knife, he was told he’d be shot by a cop if he took another step forward. He then – took another step forward. So, the police get to play a fatal version of Simon Says? Bullshit, they are allowed to fire their guns when their safety (or someone else’s) is at risk. This was an ugly, bad shoot. Honestly, I’m usually supporting the police when they shoot uncontrolled dogs, people who threaten them, even inadvertently, or tase people who are being assholes. This kid wasn’t a danger to anyone when he was shot. One of the cops fucked up, and all the others went along with it because that’s what you do when the guns start firing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/54 "2013-08-01T14:01:15Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Well on that we can agree. But if he didn’t deserve to die then, does the police officer who killed him deserve to be punished? I don’t think so. As far as I can tell, he issued a reasonable command to the guy with the knife – half-a-dozen times – and then announced that continuing to advance on the police with knife in hand would be crossing a line that, in his judgment, would justify the use of lethal force. I can’t flatly say that was an unreasonable call. I can flatly say that advancing on said police with said knife in hand was an unreasonable call. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/55 "2013-08-01T14:04:44Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I can flatly say that advancing on said police with said knife in hand was an unreasonable call. Your fantastical ‘advancing on police’ didn’t happen. From OP: > [@KarlGauss](#): > > Despite all this, I kept things out of the pit. Then, a few minutes ago, I watched [this new (to me) video of the events](http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=457_1375155526). My gawd!! It shows that the victim was not lunging toward the door (and thus the cops) when he was shot. He was no closer to the door than he had been earlier in the standoff. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/56 "2013-08-01T14:07:41Z")
I highly doubt this was suicide by cop, it looks like the kid was having some sort of psychotic break. Taking his life because he was unable to follow commands in such a state is still disgusting! ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/57 "2013-08-01T14:10:34Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I highly doubt this was suicide by cop, it looks like the kid was having some sort of psychotic break. Taking his life because he was unable to follow commands in such a state is still disgusting! But…but…they were YELLING\*! He should have LISTENED! - Repeatedly!! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/58 "2013-08-01T14:13:17Z")
[QUOTE=Sicks Ate] Your fantastical ‘advancing on police’ didn’t happen. From OP: [/QUOTE] Take another look. As you quote, he was no closer to the door than he’d been earlier in the standoff – but AFAICT he’d retreated from the door, and then started returning to it right after the warning I mentioned in my latest post, which he of course disregarded like the half-dozen reasonable instructions prior. [QUOTE=elbows] I highly doubt this was suicide by cop, it looks like the kid was having some sort of psychotic break. [/QUOTE] Why, what does a man committing suicide by cop look like? ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/59 "2013-08-01T15:14:14Z")
I’m usually on the cop’s side in many cases like this, as it’s impossible to stand in their shoes and know exactly what the situation is like. That said, this was completely out of bounds and that young man should still be alive. Locked up, but alive. I hope these guys are severely punished for this. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/60 "2013-08-01T15:39:00Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Why, what does a man committing suicide by cop look like? Why? Is there a police policy somewhere that says “In the event you perceive a person wants to be killed by police you are to oblige them regardless of the actual nature of the disturbance or the any other standing police policy with respect to the use of lethal force.”? I mean I’d be keen to see that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958.md?page=4)