# No more time for debate. Now I am outraged! \[Toronto police shooting\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958 "2013-07-30T23:18:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/141 "2016-01-27T12:54:06Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The essential point, _to which you never responded_, is the point raised in my large-font bold-face sentence. Why not address the issues raised instead of trying to put words into posters’ mouths? Well, (a) the large-font bold-face sentence I’m looking at doesn’t end with a question mark; I’d like to think I would’ve replied to a question with an answer – but since it’s just a statement about a cop who should be acquitted of murder, I responded by asking a question of my own. I’m not trying to avoid answering a question, I just didn’t see one being put to me. Ask one and see if I answer. That said, (b) I don’t see that I’m trying to put words in a poster’s mouth. > [@](#): > > As to why I emphasized the “should be” in acquitted, that’s very simple. **You’d previously hijacked the conversation by stating that his acquittal was irrelevant, what mattered to you is whether _you thought_ he should be acquitted.** I wanted to avoid that hijack. And, ironically, the giant-sized bold-faced “should” is what got me all hijacked! > [@](#): > > But you just found a different hijack to avoid answering the question What question? You made a flat statement! It ended with a period! (Am I looking at the wrong post? If so, copy-and-paste the question and I’ll apologize and see about answering it. If you’d rather, write a brand-new sentence that helpfully ends in a question mark and I’ll see about answering it without apologizing.) (But I genuinely ain’t seeing it.) > [@](#): > > Well, I’ll take your word for it. I’m sorry … and surprised. Could’ve just said “weird”, there. 🙂 (Or I could’ve just said “surprised”! Crikey, it’s all wheels within wheels, innit?) > [@](#): > > I don’t “keep score” on Dopers but I’d definitely associated you with right-wing ideation. Well, again, if you feel like asking for specifics, I’d be happy to spell out why I’ve voted the way I have, and why I plan to keep doing so. (But this is becoming a bit of a hijack of a hijack, isn’t it? It shouldn’t be about mulling whether I should be insulted for ideation in general or a styoopid jump-to-conclusions mode or whatever; it should be about this specific case. (Then again, this is the _Pit,_ so, whatevs.)) > [@](#): > > IIRC, you’re a skeptic about AGW, no? Well, I’m a skeptic about most stuff, which is why I asked for a falsifiable prediction about AGW before I’d take it seriously. But if you can recall me from that long ago, you’ll maybe recall that I then _got_ one, which then satisfied me. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/142 "2016-01-27T16:18:13Z")
The worst part of this whole thing is that Yatim could have been segregated from the nearby people and given time to cool down. The easiest way to deescalate the situation would have been to close the doors on the street car. I was listening to CBC radio yesterday and they mentioned that this was far from the first time that Forcillo had pulled his gun. Officers in Toronto are supposed to be reviewed every three times they pull their gun. Yesterday, somebody said that shooting Yatim was his 13th time pulling his gun in the last 2-3 years. Since Forcillo was one of the last cops to arrive on the scene and he pulled his gun and fired in such short order, it seems that deescalation was the last thing on his mind. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/143 "2016-01-27T20:13:01Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > The worst part of this whole thing is that Yatim could have been segregated from the nearby people and given time to cool down. The easiest way to deescalate the situation would have been to close the doors on the street car. Absolutely. And there is a button to do just that located on the \*outside \*of the car. There would have been no risk to a cop quietly walking up to the side of the streetcar and pressing it. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/144 "2016-07-28T22:39:52Z")
Officer Forcillo has been sentenced to six years in prison. [Story Here](http://cnews.canoe.com/CNEWS/Crime/2016/07/28/22655027.html). He still has appeals. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/145 "2016-07-29T07:43:54Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > This is so disgusting! He should be off the force. > > The kid sounds like he was having something like a psychotic break, poor thing. At any rate, no one was in danger, Many are killed by ‘poor things’ having psychotic breaks. The cops were right to treat this guy with the utmost caution. No one was in danger? How about the cops who might have had to approach the guy and disarm him? And as for being off the force, how about we let a thorough investigation decide that? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/146 "2016-07-29T13:54:56Z")
Dude got sentenced, I think the investigation is over. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/147 "2016-07-29T14:34:00Z")
The officer was charged with 2 different counts - 2nd degree murder for the initial volley of 3 shots which ultimately killed Sammy Yatim, and attempted murder for the 6 further bullets fired by the officer into the prone victim. The officer was cleared of the 2nd degree murder charge. His argument that lethal force was required to ensure his safety and that of the public was found to be sufficient by a jury. I recommend reading the judge’s sentencing statements here - [http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/3000801/3376-001.pdf](http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/3000801/3376-001.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/148 "2016-07-29T14:46:20Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Dude got sentenced, I think the investigation is over. Don’t let little things like convictions or sentences persuade you. The guy had it coming! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/149 "2016-07-29T14:50:46Z")
There are some interesting bits in the decision; it appears that the Judge has been following events down south. > [@](#): > > A Toronto police officer who gunned down a troubled teen on an empty streetcar three years ago **abused his authority in a way that undermines public trust in law enforcement** and the justice system, a judge said Thursday in sentencing him to six years in prison. > > In letting loose a second volley of shots on 18-year-old Sammy Yatim, **Const. James Forcillo committed an “egregious breach of trust” and his sentence must serve as notice to other police officers that they should open fire "only as a last resort,**" Justice Edward Then told a Toronto court. > [@](#): > > The judge spent almost 90 minutes dissecting the evidence that came to light during the trial, delivering a series of stinging rebukes to Forcillo’s conduct, saying **his actions constituted “a fundamental failure to understand his duty to preserve all life, not just his own.”** [QUOTE=Judge Then] “There was ample opportunity for Officer Forcillo to communicate with Mr. Yatim **by engaging in verbal de-escalation** or to issue commands in accordance with his training in order to allow Mr. Yatim to relinquish his knife.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/150 "2016-07-29T16:06:55Z")
[Bail granted pending appeal.](http://barrie.ctvnews.ca/forcillo-granted-bail-as-he-appeals-sentence-1.3007661) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/151 "2016-07-29T20:08:49Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > No one was in danger? How about the cops who might have had to approach the guy and disarm him? Did those two sentences seem like a good idea when you wrote them? Are you able now to see how ludicrously stupid they are, or would you like it pointed out for you? > [@aldiboronti](#): > > And as for being off the force, how about we let a thorough investigation decide that? **levdrakon** already pointed out what’s stupid about that sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/152 "2017-11-30T18:38:30Z")
Update: officer Forcillo was out on bail pending his appeal. Police recently found out that he breached his bail conditions. He moved from the address he had registered with his bail officer to his girlfriend’s apartment. Bail revoked and into the jug he goes. [Const. James Forcillo begins serving 6-year sentence](http://toronto.citynews.ca/2017/11/30/forcillo-serving-sentence/) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/153 "2017-11-30T19:57:02Z")
What’s the status of the appeal? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/154 "2017-11-30T21:56:28Z")
There’s nothing to indicate that he’s dropping his appeal. One of legendary judges of the appeal court who is known for his criminal appeal decisions was asked by one of the top appeal court judges to case manage the matter. The appeal will be an interesting one, for essentially the ex-cop is appealing a conviction for attempting to murder a dead body. The appearance of justice would not be served if a cop breached but was not locked up until the trial when by comparison most people who get caught breaching do get locked up until the trial/appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/155 "2017-12-01T00:44:04Z")
**KarlGauss** the OP of this thread has been missing lately, his last visit to the board was back in February of this year. And his last post was in the summer of 2016. I’ve tried emailing but gotten nothing back. I do hope he’s just taken a break, but I fear it’s more than that. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/156 "2017-12-01T00:57:37Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Update: officer Forcillo was out on bail pending his appeal. > > Police recently found out that he breached his bail conditions. He moved from the address he had registered with his bail officer to his girlfriend’s apartment. > > Bail revoked and into the jug he goes. > [Const. James Forcillo begins serving 6-year sentence](http://toronto.citynews.ca/2017/11/30/forcillo-serving-sentence/) I’m curious as to why he did something so seemingly dumb. Is it difficult to register another address? Do house arrest terms usually forbid girlfriends from visiting you at your place? I’d abide by the terms to the letter if the alternative were prison, especially if I were a cop accused of using violence unjustly against a suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/157 "2017-12-01T04:12:22Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > **KarlGauss** the OP of this thread has been missing lately, his last visit to the board was back in February of this year. And his last post was in the summer of 2016. I’ve tried emailing but gotten nothing back. > > I do hope he’s just taken a break, but I fear it’s more than that. > > ☹ I’ve worried about that myself. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/158 "2017-12-01T05:37:42Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > I’m curious as to why he did something so seemingly dumb. Is it difficult to register another address? Do house arrest terms usually forbid girlfriends from visiting you at your place? House arrest terms can take many forms, from the fairly benign to onerous to even more onerous. It is possible to change the terms (including changing one’s address, such as Officer Forcillo wanted to do), but proper legal methods to do so must be followed, and a court must approve of the changes. Based on what I saw and read in the media, he did not follow legal methods; and so, he’s back in jail pending his appeal. As an aside, I’ve wondered about **KarlGauss** myself. I was reviewing some old posts recently, saw his name, and realized that I hadn’t seen anything from him in some time. I hope that he’s okay. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/159 "2017-12-01T06:10:26Z")
Gobsmacked. Though not in Canada our office handles electronic monitoring of persons on bail. It is not my experience in our jurisdiction that such a violation would result in revocation of bail. Not at all. The reality is that quite a few people violate terms of their bail in one way or another. Some are more willful than others. We just document the details about what happened\* and let the court decide. Rarely does bail get outright revoked. The article mentions that Forcillo consented to begin serving his sentence. I would read that as the controlling issue and not so much the violation of terms of bail. - Examples: 1) Client’s job crew completed their landscaping assignment on time at 4:30pm but their truck was caught in traffic jam caused by three vehicle accident which closed one lane of roadway (See police report #123456, attached). Client arrived home 23 minutes late, at 6:23pm, as a result. 2) Client violated home confinement. He was located at maternity ward of hospital by PC Smith. Hospital staff confirmed his wife is in labor. 3) Client violated home confinement. Client called 9-1-1 to report his home is on fire. Fire officers attended client’s home address and found the single story wooden structure fully engulfed. Client stayed the night at district police station pending notification to the court and determination of a temporary accommodation. 4) Client violated home confinement. Client was located by PC Jones at Walker’s Road pharmacy where he stated he was purchasing medication for his child. Client purchased a prescription refill of Ventolin inhaler. PC Jones escorted client to his home. And so on… ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958/160 "2017-12-01T06:22:38Z")
But all of your examples are rather transitory, with good explanations why the person was temporarily AWOL from their place of residence. In this case, the accused changed his place of residence and didn’t tell the proper authority. That’s quite different. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-time-for-debate-now-i-am-outraged-toronto-police-shooting/664958.md?page=9)