# No more vaping - until they figure out what's going on, anyway **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 4, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699 "2019-09-04T19:32:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/1 "2019-09-04T19:32:44Z")
A recent outbreak of severe lung disorders requiring hospitalization and in some cases even medically-induced coma, has been linked to vaping. There are a lot of news articles about it and none of them can really pin down what kind of vape, if any, is shared in common in these incidents, or indeed what specifically is causing them to happen. But it’s worrisome. I advocated quite strongly for vapes in [this thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=839269&page=3) in Great Debates. I still think it’s _likely_ that they are, in the long term, safer than tobacco use because vapor doesn’t have the same effects on the lungs that burning tobacco particles have. But with all that being said, for the time being, I am quitting JUUL. If, after some thorough studies, it turns out that these recent illnesses were caused by a specific kind of chemical that is NOT in JUUL, I will gladly resume using JUUL. If it is traced to some obscure off-brand or home-brewed vapor juice, and can be definitively said to be unrelated to JUUL specifically, I’ll use it. But for now I have to hold off. Still smoke rolled tobacco occasionally (Amsterdam Shag, in a thin Zig-Zag paper) like in the morning with coffee, or during breaks at band practice. I typically don’t smoke more than one cigarette a day, if that (weeks may go by where I don’t smoke at all), but with the vape gone, I may find myself either compensating with more smoking (hopefully not) or jonesing like a motherfucker for nicotine, because I’m in the middle of a business deal that’s unbelievably stressful and full of bureaucratic bullshit red tape, uncertainty, and directly involving a bank vice president who, if you google his name, the first 4 hits involve the words “Paul Manafort”, no shit. Every day for the forseeable future until this is resolved, is going to be edge-of-my-seat anxiety. Fuck! ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/2 "2019-09-04T20:20:12Z")
The gum is a great nicotine delivery vehicle for those jonseing moments. ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/3 "2019-09-05T14:50:46Z")
It’s turning out the culprit is not ecigs but rather counterfeit THC vapes being sold on the street. Buy your legal THC from a licensed, legal, regulated source and avoid the cheap knock-offs the street vendors and flea markets are selling. ---
**Author:** ![Swampwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Swampwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swampwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/4 "2019-09-05T15:25:10Z")
> [@Turble](#): > > It’s turning out the culprit is not ecigs but rather counterfeit THC vapes being sold on the street. Buy your legal THC from a licensed, legal, regulated source and avoid the cheap knock-offs the street vendors and flea markets are selling. I’m not surprised. IIRC, all of these mystery illnesses came from the same general location. Sounded isolated to me at the time, probably from the same batch of god-knows-what, or at least source. And that is why I make my own damn juice. I know what goes in it (and costs about $70 for 2L) ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/5 "2019-09-05T16:04:32Z")
> [@Turble](#): > > It’s turning out the culprit is not ecigs but rather counterfeit THC vapes being sold on the street. Buy your legal THC from a licensed, legal, regulated source and avoid the cheap knock-offs the street vendors and flea markets are selling. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![FastDan1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fastdan1/32/427_2.png) [@FastDan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FastDan1)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/6 "2019-09-05T16:12:42Z")
> [@Swampwolf](#): > > I’m not surprised. IIRC, all of these mystery illnesses came from the same general location. Sounded isolated to me at the time, probably from the same batch of god-knows-what, or at least source. Not according to [this](https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2019/09/04/vaping-flavored-e-cigarette-ban-michigan/2200445001/): > [@](#): > > At least 215 people in 25 states have developed life-threatening respiratory illnesses tied to vaping, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. From the same article: > [@](#): > > The CDC’s investigation of e-cigarette-associated illnesses hasn’t pointed to any specific products but suggests that many of the people who were sickened used e-cigarettes with liquids that contained CBD. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/7 "2019-09-05T16:18:24Z")
> [@Turble](#): > > It’s turning out the culprit is not ecigs but rather counterfeit THC vapes being sold on the street. > [@Swampwolf](#): > > IIRC, all of these mystery illnesses came from the same general location. [The CDC has said](https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/basic_information/e-cigarettes/severe-lung-disease.html) that many patients reported using e-cigs with cannabinoid components, but they have explicitly said that they have not identified a single substance that is responsible. They’ve said nothing about counterfeit vapes. And cases have been reported in at least 25 states, so I’m not sure “the same general location” is accurate. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/8 "2019-09-05T16:19:28Z")
[Counterfeit Weed Vape Cartridges Are Everywhere — and They’re Making People Sick](https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/counterfeit-thc-vapes-cdc-vaping-health-alert-875931/) > [@](#): > > Indeed, what happened to the two men in Long Island has been happening across the country. As the dangers of e-cigarettes in general become more apparent, with the CDC announcing last week that it was aware of 193 potential cases of severe lung illness in 22 states linked to vaping (and one death in Illinois officially linked to vaping), the potential long-term health risks of vaping are becoming increasingly clear, from breathing difficulties to eye and airway irritation. And while it’s unclear exactly how many of these cases are attributable to products containing THC, as opposed to traditional nicotine e-cigarettes, Dr. Ileana Arias, senior scientific advisor and acting deputy director for non-infectious diseases at CDC, noted on a Friday conference call that “in many cases” patients had reported using THC-containing products, though the CDC declined to specify exactly how many. As I’m sure counterfeit THC vapes are more profitable than fake nicotine vapes, it sounds like a good line of investigation. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/9 "2019-09-05T19:31:12Z")
Apparently it’s initially [looking like vitamin E acetate may be the culprit](https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2019/09/05/contaminant-found-vaping-products-linked-deadly-lung-illnesses-state-federal-labs-show/). The data is not conclusive of course, but there’s clearly a correlation between vape products containing vitamin E acetate and the recent vape-related hospitalizations. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/10 "2019-09-05T20:17:19Z")
The story in the news today was about the second death where they got their THC cartridge from a legal cannabis shop. [2nd person in US dies from lung disease linked to vaping - ABC News](https://abcnews.go.com/US/person-us-dies-lung-disease-linked-vaping/story?id=65405350) ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/11 "2019-09-05T20:24:19Z")
How come people can’t be satisfied just packing a little weed into a bowl like the good old days? And how come… (Aaaaargh! Get offa my lawn!!) ---
**Author:** ![Swampwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Swampwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swampwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/12 "2019-09-05T20:53:32Z")
> [@Swampwolf](#): > > I’m not surprised. IIRC, all of these mystery illnesses came from the same general location. I stand corrected. Still confident in the (comparative) safety of my vape, but I’ll be keeping an eye on this as it develops. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/13 "2019-09-06T11:21:29Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Apparently it’s initially [looking like vitamin E acetate may be the culprit](https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2019/09/05/contaminant-found-vaping-products-linked-deadly-lung-illnesses-state-federal-labs-show/). > > The data is not conclusive of course, but there’s clearly a correlation between vape products containing vitamin E acetate and the recent vape-related hospitalizations. And from that article (re: **Turble** ): > [@](#): > > Many of those who have fallen ill say they have vaped products containing marijuana, but others said they used traditional nicotine e-cigarettes. Many report using both. Authorities said they are not ruling out adulterants in nicotine vaping products. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/14 "2019-09-06T12:30:25Z")
We had a ton of them, all at the same time, in Wisconsin. When the first one or two happened, I remember at least one of the people saying that he had used a THC cart, but either wouldn’t turn it over to be analyzed or wouldn’t tell them where he got it. This guy was on death’s door and kept his mouth shut, I have a feeling he was protecting someone. Maybe he got it from a large dealer. In any case, as more and more cases showed up, some of the news stories would mention THC carts as possibly being connected. This may be causing some bias for me, but all of a sudden I’m hearing the CDC and other agencies telling people that they absolutely should not use e-cigs because they can do irreparable damage to your lungs while pointing to these cases. In the mean time, I keep coming back to the thought that e-cigs have been around for a while at this point and all these people all got sick and the same time, a lot of them in the same area and there were a lot of mentions of THC carts. If they’re using THC carts, it means they’re being made/filled/sold clandestine style so there’s no control over how they’re made, their ingredients etc. To me, it sounds like there’s a bad batch going around with something in it causing these problems. To tell everyone they shouldn’t use any type of vape device ever without having any idea what caused this is like telling people that they shouldn’t ever use a cell phone after a handful of li-on batteries exploded. I’m not arguing that vaping isn’t bad, I’m saying they should wait for some actual results before jumping on this as a way to ban something they don’t want anyway. If it turns out that it was just a tainted batch making people sick, IMO, the people suggesting that no one should vape anything ever, should lose credibility pointing to this as a reason. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/15 "2019-09-06T14:43:44Z")
You have to take the reports that some of the people used only nicotine products with a grain of salt. It could be true, or it could be that they didn’t want to admit they were using THC. > [@Joey\_P](#): > > …In the mean time, I keep coming back to the thought that e-cigs have been around for a while at this point and all these people all got sick and the same time, a lot of them in the same area and there were a lot of mentions of THC carts. If they’re using THC carts, it means they’re being made/filled/sold clandestine style so there’s no control over how they’re made, their ingredients etc. To me, it sounds like there’s a bad batch going around with something in it causing these problems. It does seem like the problems started suddenly, but there were probably several cases for a long time that were misdiagnosed and never connected. Once the first doctor proposes vaping as the cause, other cases can be tied together and it appears the incidence jumped dramatically. As far as black market cartridges, there are plenty of states where these are legally filled with regulatory guidance. It doesn’t mean people buy those (black market is cheaper), but the Oregon case at least appears to be someone who bought from a legal dispensary. We’ll see if that turns out to be the case. If the cause is the oils in the lungs, it could be a fundamental problem with vaping THC, legit or not. Unlike nicotine, THC has to be dissolved in an oil to vape. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/16 "2019-09-06T15:03:12Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > As far as black market cartridges, there are plenty of states where these are legally filled with regulatory guidance. It doesn’t mean people buy those (black market is cheaper), but the Oregon case at least appears to be someone who bought from a legal dispensary. We’ll see if that turns out to be the case. If the cause is the oils in the lungs, it could be a fundamental problem with vaping THC, legit or not. Unlike nicotine, THC has to be dissolved in an oil to vape. No, there are dry herb vapers, which heat the plant material just enough to release the good stuff but not combust. They were actually going long before nicotine vaping but were generally a table top thing. Modern batteries have allowed them to be handheld. ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/17 "2019-09-06T15:06:43Z")
> **[Probe into vaping-linked illnesses turns up form of vitamin E from skin...](https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/09/probe-into-vaping-linked-illnesses-turns-up-form-of-vitamin-e-from-skin-creams/)** > > Experts suspect the vitamin could be harmful, but the FDA is not yet convinced. > [@](#): > > As Ars has previously reported, vaping liquids containing THC, or tetrahydrocannabinol, have been prime suspects in the investigation since early on. THC is the primary psychoactive ingredient in cannabis. > > “At least one vitamin E acetate containing vape product has been linked to each patient who submitted a product for testing,” the department said in a statement. Many of the products were counterfeits, the department added, which have been another element thought key to the illnesses. > > The health department noted that physicians in the state had reported 34 cases of lung illnesses linked to vaping cannabis-containing liquids. None of the nicotine-based products the state tested turned up vitamin E acetate. Note that you can buy empty cannabis cartridge boxes by the thousands on Amazon and eBay. [https://www.amazon.com/Distillate-Concentrate-Packaging-Shatter-Labels/dp/B07JGGDM9H/ref=sr\_1\_4?keywords=vape+cartridge+boxes&qid=1567781285&s=gateway&sr=8-4](https://www.amazon.com/Distillate-Concentrate-Packaging-Shatter-Labels/dp/B07JGGDM9H/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=vape+cartridge+boxes&qid=1567781285&s=gateway&sr=8-4) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2019, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/18 "2019-09-07T02:38:03Z")
And a new study indicates that the solvents used in vapes may cause significant damage to the lungs. In a study that compared vape solutions with nicotine to solutions wth no drugs, both found significant lung damage. > **[Vaping causes 'havoc' in the lungs, study with mice finds | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/e-cigarette-vaping-lung-damage-1.5270986)** > > Regular exposure to e-cigarette vapours disrupts the protective layer in the lungs, according to a study using lab mice that comes amid a U.S. investigation into 215 human cases of severe respiratory problems possibly linked to vaping. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2019, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/19 "2019-09-07T03:26:15Z")
As a 30 year smoker, 20 as an ex, I am amazed that this revelation about vaping is such a surprise. We have ample examples of severe medical problems from any number of inhalation agents, both particulate and chemical. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2019, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699/20 "2019-09-07T09:27:50Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > To me, it sounds like there’s a bad batch going around with something in it causing these problems. To tell everyone they shouldn’t use any type of vape device ever without having any idea what caused this is like telling people that they shouldn’t ever use a cell phone after a handful of li-on batteries exploded. Actually, it strikes me as being more like “we’ve got _E. coli_ linked to romaine lettuce and until we can figure out exactly where it’s coming from don’t eat any romaine lettuce”. Clearly, there are serious serious problems linked to vaping at the moment and until someone figures out exactly what’s going on maybe dialing back on the vaping is a good idea. I think the vaping companies are concerned because they fear people entirely giving up vaping either because they go back to smoking tobacco or just finally manage to give up nicotine entirely. From my viewpoint, it’s up to the individual whether or not to continue vaping, but it would be irresponsible for authorities NOT to mention there is a new and very serious risk at the moment and they aren’t sure why. Safest is not to vape, but none of us lives a completely safe life. Keep informed and make your own choices. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-more-vaping-until-they-figure-out-whats-going-on-anyway/839699.md?page=2)