# No, Mr. NY Times art critic...a dildo up your butt is NOT art **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 18, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892 "2012-08-18T18:51:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/101 "2012-08-19T16:29:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Most people would prefer a smooth-running engine in their car, but you don’t get the nice ride without a regular series of explosive sparks. I think New York(and to a lesser extent, Los Angeles) provides that spark for the U.S. Then a balance, a coexistence, is in order. I don’t think either mindset wants to acknowledge the other for what it is and what it contributes. But maybe it’s the wrong era for that; we’re in a time of polarization. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/102 "2012-08-19T16:38:40Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Ya know that reaction you have when you drop a really big turd, that wonderful sense of relief and completion? Now that’s art. > > There was no mention of that in the review. I expect that the anal dancers were focused on stasis after insertion, rather than the actus of expulsion, and thereby missed their opportunity to communicate with the audience, for the bond that everyone shares is the feeling of a really good dump, not the feeling (if any) of watching someone’s foot holding a dildo rather than a butt plug up another person’s ass. By failing to find and build on commonality and community with the audience, the dancers failed. The artists weren’t going for that big-turd feeling (ha!). They were, like a lot of artists these days, celebrating identity. _Queer_, remember, is part of the name of the series. Keeping an identity, especially one society doesn’t understand, can feel like balancing on one foot. Sometimes, I suppose, it can even feel like stuffing something up your ass, and having to keep it there in the most awkward way. Or to turn the viewpoint around, it can make people _think_ you’re trying to keep something up your ass in spite of all difficulties. Not that this excuses shallow art, or makes the one-dimensional profound, of course. Identity is a good beginning for art, but as a beginning _and_ ending, it gets to be tendentious and indulgent. The ass dance to me suggests just such a work. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/103 "2012-08-19T16:39:04Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > [This](http://www.revistacodigo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Arte_Claire-Fontaine_8.jpg) is the legacy of Duchamp and Warhol. Fontaine’s Dildo Washer. [You don’t have to take my word for it.](http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2010-08-05/culture/claire-fontaine-economies-at-moca-tennis-balls-dildos-and-rotating-plants-help-us-view-our-world-anew/) This NY show should hook up with her–then they’d have a place to clean their props after each show. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/104 "2012-08-19T16:47:19Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > This NY show should hook up with her–then they’d have a place to clean their props after each show. That would require bringing the gently used dildos from New York to Miami. If the TSA doesn’t have a rule against dildos on a plane, it probably should. There may be more fluids involved than airport security is usually willing to tolerate. The review itself is brilliant. I’ve never been able to appreciate dance very much despite trying a few times. But after reading that, I’m going to try to read something about the visual language of ballet and maybe give it another shot. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/105 "2012-08-19T17:00:28Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Yeah, an “illustrator”. > > Look at [Schwerner’s eyes and face](http://uploads0.wikipaintings.org/images/norman-rockwell/southern-justice-murder-in-mississippi-1965.jpg!HD.jpg), then call him an illustator. > > Or [this one](http://uploads1.wikipaintings.org/images/norman-rockwell/the-problem-we-all-live-with-1935.jpg), snob. An illustrator, yeah, right. > > Didn’t mean his ‘political work’? Okay, how about [this lighting and letters that float](http://artblart.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/norman-rockwell-shuffleton_s-barbershop-1950.jpg)? > > Snob. Your first and third were a side of Rockwell I’ve not seen before. Thank you. However I’m not actually sure where the line between painting and illustration is drawn and I could still see someone putting those on the illustration side _but_ why is that any kind of denigration? ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/106 "2012-08-19T17:01:23Z")
> [@Becky2844](#): > > One time we were prepping the line, chopping carrots. Bored to death, I asked my co-worker what he thought about the merits of carrots. He said “I don’t know anything about carrots.” I said, “Neither do I, but I know what I like.” If I’d only known, I could have stuck one up my butt and been a star. Didn’t want this gem to get overlooked. It literally made me laugh out loud. Good times. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/107 "2012-08-19T17:03:20Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > An objective art critic would be such a boon in these times, not people talking about “soul” or whatever–that’s practically woo. How about you try and define an “objective art critic” for us? What would distinguish this person from art critics as they currently exist? What skills or abilities would this person have? How would his or her evaluations differ from those currently offered by art critics? Maybe you could, as an example or a primer on the subject, offer us an objective critique of a piece of art, just to show us what it looks like? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/108 "2012-08-19T17:10:45Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > How about you try and define an “objective art critic” for us? What would distinguish this person from art critics as they currently exist? What skills or abilities would this person have? How would his or her evaluations differ from those currently offered by art critics? > > Maybe you could, as an example or a primer on the subject, offer us an objective critique of a piece of art, just to show us what it looks like? Ooh ooh. Can I try? [_I Dont Want No Retro Spective_ (1979), by Ed Ruscha](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-imSOwZtocv4/Tk6fnHkChrI/AAAAAAAABJU/kwASaHXjoac/s1600/Sothebys-2.jpg) _I Dont Want No Retro Spective_ consists of the title’s words stenciled on a background of lightly washed red. The theme of the painting is the artist’s lack of concern about his past work being analyzed, celebrated, or indeed, even exhibited at all. Ruscha’s eschewing of conventional word spacing, as well as grammatical and punctuation rules, suggests that that lack of concern may be a point of some pride, or at least, part of a cultivated public image. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/109 "2012-08-19T17:22:44Z")
A dildo up a dancer’s butt is fuckin’ hilarious; and farce **is** art. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/110 "2012-08-19T17:27:39Z")
> [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](#): > > Your first and third were a side of Rockwell I’ve not seen before. Thank you. However I’m not actually sure where the line between painting and illustration is drawn and I could still see someone putting those on the illustration side _but_ why is that any kind of denigration? Illustration takes skill, and skill is no longer necessary for artists (and even less so for critics). ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/111 "2012-08-19T17:30:46Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > The artists weren’t going for that big-turd feeling (ha!). They were, like a lot of artists these days, celebrating identity. _Queer_, remember, is part of the name of the series. > > Keeping an identity, especially one society doesn’t understand, can feel like balancing on one foot. Sometimes, I suppose, it can even feel like stuffing something up your ass, and having to keep it there in the most awkward way. Or to turn the viewpoint around, it can make people _think_ you’re trying to keep something up your ass in spite of all difficulties. > > Not that this excuses shallow art, or makes the one-dimensional profound, of course. Identity is a good beginning for art, but as a beginning _and_ ending, it gets to be tendentious and indulgent. The ass dance to me suggests just such a work. The difference in our reviews is a good example of how reviews, by their very nature, are subjective. I’m from Kanukistan, where queer is normal. You are from the USA, where queer identity is struggling for acceptance. I can see why the show would play better in NY than in TO. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/112 "2012-08-19T17:31:16Z")
Question: If the critic had mentioned the performance in question _ **and** _ phrased it sort of like: _“OTOH you have people such as [description of the show]; that’s not bold or edgy art, Hell that’s not even art, it’s just acting like dorks.”_ Would that have been better? Or would the OP still object that it should not even be brought up or compared with the other more recognized artistic performances? The critic’s politely saying their attempt at art is full of fail, what more do we want? Anything we do to express ourselves that does not fulfill a practical utilitarian survival purpose can be turned into art; but mostly, as per Mr. Sturgeon, the result is crap. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/113 "2012-08-19T17:45:08Z")
**Qin** , Russia has a long, colorful history of art, not just the Soviets. The “Socialist Realism” style, strangely enough, was influenced by [Ilya Repin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Repin), one of Russia’s greatest artists. I always liked his painting of _Ivan the Terrible and His Son Ivan_. You can see the horror in Ivan’s expression as he holds his son’s body, realizing what he’s done in his own rage. The dying Tsarevich has an almost Christ-like look to him. It’s almost like the [_Pieta_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piet%C3%A0_(Michelangelo)), in a sick, twisted way. (Another of my favorites.) > [@Electric\_Warrior](#): > > My favorite artist is Alphonse Mucha; M.C. Escher is a second favorite. Make of that what you will. I love Mucha – I would consider him my favorite artist as well. I absolutely adore Art Nouveau. I also love the Pre-Raphaelites, like John William Waterhouse. Dali is awesome. (And the piece described in the OP is art. It’s incredibly shitty art, but it’s art.) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/114 "2012-08-19T17:45:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > A dildo up a dancer’s butt is fuckin’ hilarious; and farce **is** art. So there I was, in a room full of people, watching the fellow on the table beside me being masturbated while he was wearing boxers with tax return forms printed on them. The woman stroking him was dressed as an IRS auditor, and was questioning him with rapier wit while reviewing his return in detail. When she came across an error, she’d smack his balls, he’d scream, and then she’d get back to masturbating him while reading the next line of his return. How he maintained his most impressive erection is beyond me. Needless to say, this had me laughing, for it was hilarious watching the interplay between the taxpayer and the auditor. The more I laughed, the more the person standing over my table smacked my poor old bare ass, which in turn would turn me from laughing to crying, and my cycle of laughing and crying continued while the taxpayer and the auditor continued their performance. A performance causing the audience alternately laugh and cry. Now that was art. ---
**Author:** ![Electric\_Warrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Electric\_Warrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electric_Warrior)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/115 "2012-08-19T17:48:26Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > By failing to find and build on commonality and community with the audience, the dancers failed. Right, and I agree entirely with the critic’s premise that there is a lot of bad art out there. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/116 "2012-08-19T17:50:13Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > So there I was, in a room full of people, watching the fellow on the table beside me being masturbated while he was wearing boxers with tax return forms printed on them. The woman stroking him was dressed as an IRS auditor, and was questioning him with rapier wit while reviewing his return in detail. When she came across an error, she’d smack his balls, he’d scream, and then she’d get back to masturbating him while reading the next line of his return. How he maintained his most impressive erection is beyond me. > > Needless to say, this had me laughing, for it was hilarious watching the interplay between the taxpayer and the auditor. The more I laughed, the more the person standing over my table smacked my poor old bare ass, which in turn would turn me from laughing to crying, and my cycle of laughing and crying continued while the taxpayer and the auditor continued their performance. > > A performance causing the audience alternately laugh and cry. Now that was art. Is this a part of **Pale King** that didn’t make it to the Kindle edition? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/117 "2012-08-19T17:55:01Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > The difference in our reviews is a good example of how reviews, by their very nature, are subjective. > > I’m from Kanukistan, where queer is normal. You are from the USA, where queer identity is struggling for acceptance. I can see why the show would play better in NY than in TO. I don’t really know Canada all that well, but I’m pretty sure I could find places there where queer identity is struggling for acceptance more than it is in the downtown NY arts scene. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/118 "2012-08-19T17:55:45Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Is this a part of **Pale King** that didn’t make it to the Kindle edition? Nah, just a bit of fun on a Saturday night. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/119 "2012-08-19T17:57:01Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I don’t really know Canada all that well, but I’m pretty sure I could find places there where queer identity is struggling for acceptance more than it is in the downtown NY arts scene. Of course, but then that dance would never play in those locales in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/120 "2012-08-19T17:59:21Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Of course, but then that dance would never play in those locales in the first place. Yeah, I don’t think this routine will be playing in Birmingham Alabama or Orange County CA. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892.md?page=7)