# No, Mr. NY Times art critic...a dildo up your butt is NOT art **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 18, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892 "2012-08-18T18:51:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/121 "2012-08-19T18:08:45Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Nah, just a bit of fun on a Saturday night. I’m impressed you could get an IRS agent anywhere near a tax return on a weekend. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/122 "2012-08-19T18:22:03Z")
> [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](#): > > I’m not actually sure where the line between painting and illustration is drawn and I could still see someone putting those on the illustration side _but_ why is that any kind of denigration? Because it was _used_ as a denigration by the person who brought it up. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/123 "2012-08-19T18:28:10Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > I lived in and around New York 18 years. I grew to hate the vibe of New York, but it’s as American as anything can be. > > The only thing the fucking dumb asses have a point about is that New York does turn its back on the country it is part of. It focuses on the rest of the world. It takes in people, things, and thoughts from everywhere, but its arms open widest to the desperate, the restless, and the burning-bright. It’s not a place to be calm or centered or grounded, and I think people in smaller places value those things. I know I do. Really? Because most of the people in NY I know come from other parts of America. From Alaska, to Florida, to Kansas, Texas and California and no, they are not all homosexuals who were driven out of the ‘real’ America. They are just people wanting to live the lives they want. And they are Americans. We don’t turn on backs on you. You fucking attack us and then claim victimhood. Suck my cock you self righteous asshole. Actually suck on the dildo that I pull out of my ass. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/124 "2012-08-19T18:41:26Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Really? Because most of the people in NY I know come from other parts of America. From Alaska, to Florida, to Kansas, Texas and California and no, they are not all homosexuals who were driven out of the ‘real’ America. They are just people wanting to live the lives they want. And they are Americans. We don’t turn on backs on you. You fucking attack us and then claim victimhood. Suck my cock you self righteous asshole. Actually suck on the dildo that I pull out of my ass. What is it that you folks have against butt plugs? ---
**Author:** ![Becky2844](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Becky2844](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Becky2844)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/125 "2012-08-19T19:03:04Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Didn’t want this gem to get overlooked. It literally made me laugh out loud. Good times. 😃 😃_blush_ ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/126 "2012-08-19T19:03:32Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Really? Because most of the people in NY I know come from other parts of America. From Alaska, to Florida, to Kansas, Texas and California and no, they are not all homosexuals who were driven out of the ‘real’ America. They are just people wanting to live the lives they want. And they are Americans. We don’t turn on backs on you. You fucking attack us and then claim victimhood. Suck my cock you self righteous asshole. Actually suck on the dildo that I pull out of my ass. Dude, he’s a New Yorker. So am I, and I tend to agree with him. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/127 "2012-08-19T19:09:47Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Because it was _used_ as a denigration by the person who brought it up. No need to pick it up and run with it. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/128 "2012-08-19T19:10:31Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Dude, he’s a New Yorker. So am I, and I tend to agree with him. Ex-New Yorker, actually. And **zebra** does have a point: no one can live the lives they want to outside New York unless they are (as I believe Mel Brooks called it) a white person who drives a white Ford station wagon and lives on mayonnaise-on-white sammiches and vanilla shakes. :rolleyes::dubious: Besides, New Yorkers have not only a right, but a responsibility - to themselves at least - to tell the rest of us where to go. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/129 "2012-08-19T19:14:29Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Ex-New Yorker, actually. And **zebra** does have a point: no one can live the lives they want to outside New York unless they are (as I believe Mel Brooks called it) a white person who drives a white Ford station wagon and lives on mayonnaise-on-white sammiches and vanilla shakes. :rolleyes::dubious: You can take the man out of Brooklyn. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/130 "2012-08-19T19:31:26Z")
The example given in the OP sounds quite boring. Tableau vivant? I wouldn’t pay to attend a dance performance if it’s nothing but tableau vivant. That ain’t dance (by definition). Now, if it’s New York transgressive performance art you want, the all-time classic is Kembra Pfahler’s “Wall of Vagina.” I’m not going to link to it, you’re on your own there. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/131 "2012-08-19T19:37:58Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > How about you try and define an “objective art critic” for us? What would distinguish this person from art critics as they currently exist? What skills or abilities would this person have? How would his or her evaluations differ from those currently offered by art critics? > > Maybe you could, as an example or a primer on the subject, offer us an objective critique of a piece of art, just to show us what it looks like? Bwahahaha! You people are truly cracking me up in this thread. Keep it up!! (Or in…) ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/132 "2012-08-19T19:41:50Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Because it was _used_ as a denigration by the person who brought it up. Not at all. You’re reading things into my post that weren’t there. The man was a _self-described_ illustrator and commercial artist who was uncomfortable with being called an “artist”. As I’ve already said (and as someone who grew up seeing his work on the covers of the SEP), I have always liked his work. Is it art? Dunno. Seems like a subjective term. Was he an artist? Not according to him, which would seem to be the definitive opinion. But please keep acting like an asshole on the subject. It suits you. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/133 "2012-08-19T20:09:53Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > The man was a _self-described_ illustrator and commercial artist who was uncomfortable with being called an “artist”. That’s quite understandable, given fine art included an “artist” (Manzoni) selling cans of his own shit to art collectors. (Didn’t MOMA have a can in its collection?). ---
**Author:** ![Freakenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b782af/32.png) [@Freakenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freakenstein)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/134 "2012-08-19T20:25:27Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > That’s quite understandable, given fine art included an “artist” (Manzoni) selling cans of his own shit to art collectors. (Didn’t MOMA have a can in its collection?). Hey, everything’s art if it’s done with good taste. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/135 "2012-08-19T20:39:54Z")
There’s already an assistant professor of queer studies at some mediocre college writing a paper on the transgressive hermeneutics of walking down the street with a dildo up your business. So don’t go telling me it isn’t legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/136 "2012-08-19T20:41:12Z")
Yup, [MoMA has one](http://www.moma.org/collection/object.php?object_id=80768). When comparing Rockwell’s “The Problem We All Live With” against Manzoni’s “Merda d’Artista”, the former used conventional technique to reach out and convey a significant message, while the latter did not use conventional technique and only asked the very self-reflexive question what is art and are art collectors and critics for real. Since art is pretty much whatever a person says is art, it’s a bit silly to monkey about creating art for the purpose of asking if it is art, and only marginally less useless to create art for the purpose of making collectors and critics look like fools. As far as an artist claiming to not be an artist, it’s really not that relevant. Once the art is out there in the world and becomes accepted as art, it matters not what the artist asserts with regard whether or not he or she believes himself or herself to be an artist. Rockwell is a painter. Atwood is a speculative fiction author. Jo Jo is both a performing musician and a painter. All regardless of Rockwell claiming not to be a painter, Atwood claiming not to be a speculative fiction author, and Jo Jo probably not having a clue as to what a performance musician or painter is. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/137 "2012-08-19T20:41:30Z")
There are only 90 cans of _Merda d’artista_, so if nothing else Manzoni can be praised for a level of self-restraint lacking in many, many other artists who crank out the same old shit year after year. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/138 "2012-08-19T20:43:20Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > There’s already an assistant professor of queer studies at some mediocre college writing a paper on the transgressive hermeneutics of walking down the street with a dildo up your business. So don’t go telling me it isn’t legitimate. I should be so lucky as to get a job like that some day. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/139 "2012-08-19T20:44:41Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > I don’t care one patoot about the whole ‘soul’ vs ‘a soul’ argument, but as for your latter point, why couldn’t you be content to just say they didn’t move you? Why go so far as to say they have ‘no soul’? I for one found them to have a sort of Americana soul. I think seeing them in person would move me in some fashion. > So, with your bold proclamation, what does that make me? Why not address what I wrote instead of what you wished I would have. I made no “bold proclamation”, I said “IMO”. Saying they had no soul, IMO is the same as saying they didn’t move me. I am an artist. I have had several successful shows and openings. I have taught art and have sold art internationally. I also worked for quite a few years as an illustrator and a graphic artist. None of that, however, makes my opinion about art more valid than yours. Art is subjective. But I do have an opinion as a maker of both kinds of art. And my opinion is that Rockwell was a talented draftsman, craftsman and illustrator - not a true artist. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/140 "2012-08-19T20:49:34Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > . . . regardless of Rockwell claiming not to be a painter . . . Whoops, should have said “fine artist” rather than “painter”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892.md?page=8)