# No, Mr. NY Times art critic...a dildo up your butt is NOT art **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 18, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892 "2012-08-18T18:51:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/141 "2012-08-19T20:53:10Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > There are only 90 cans of _Merda d’artista_, so if nothing else Manzoni can be praised for a level of self-restraint lacking in many, many other artists who crank out the same old shit year after year. Yeh, Delvoye has art that spews out shit as regularly as Old Faithful. Or is it that he has machines that spew out art as regularly as Old Faithful. Either way, the critics lap it up. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/142 "2012-08-19T20:57:17Z")
Speaking of Pop Culture: NASCAR: (as someone else, perhaps PJ O’Rourke, called it) a bunch of cars making left turns Las Vegas: where among the giant casinos (an oxymoron, since casino means little house), is the Belagio, where gondolas ply indoor canals. Gondolas, in the desert. Is there a better metaphor for “fucking useless” in the art world? Norman Rockwell was awesome. So was Walt Disney. Neither had had happy lives growing up, and so they, by their own admission, created worlds as they wished could be, not as they were. If you believe that the function of art is to serve humanity’s understanding of itself (as I do), you’ll agree that they were very good craftsmen, very good businessmen, and perfectly decent human beings. But not great artists. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/143 "2012-08-19T21:11:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Most people would prefer a smooth-running engine in their car, but you don’t get the nice ride without a regular series of explosive sparks. I think New York(and to a lesser extent, Los Angeles) provides that spark for the U.S. When I started reading your post I thought you were getting set to praise Detroit for its importance to the nation (and all the working-class Midwestern Americana that calls to mind, Suzi Quatro, Bob Seger, heartland rock, Detroit Rock City, …). But it only led up to a banal somewhat strained metaphor. Well, keep trying. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/144 "2012-08-19T21:15:23Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Definitely: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist\_realism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_realism) > > Compare this to Jackson Pollock or Andy Warhol… I’ve been to East Berlin and seen some of their socialist realistic murals - I’ll take Warhol and Pollock any day. Plus you got sent to the camps if you didn’t paint in the socialist realism style. Ditto for music. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/145 "2012-08-19T21:16:05Z")
Band camp? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/146 "2012-08-19T21:23:46Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > I agree with the OP. Who wants to put the Nutcracker and a dildo up an ass in the same category? You must not have been dragged to enough Nutcracker performances. I think I’d rather see the dildos. (I just wrote “take the dildos” but thought better of it.) Probably more dildo sites on the web also. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/147 "2012-08-19T21:25:35Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > In the context of this discussion, I would prefer not to think about stuffing pigeons anywhere. What do you have against pigeons getting shit-faced? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/148 "2012-08-19T21:35:27Z")
What’s the deal with people getting outraged that bad art isn’t typically undefined as art? If I notice something that is spectacularly unsuccessful, I don’t try to undefine it from being what it is. A Yugo is still a car. Windows ME was still an operating system. **Qin Shi Huangdi** ’s abortion of a website was still a message board. (Granted, a message board whose content was almost entirely a ginormous picture of a WW2 admiral, but still.) Sarah Palin was still a VP candidate. Why this hard-on for bad art? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/149 "2012-08-19T21:58:13Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What’s the deal with people getting outraged that bad art isn’t typically undefined as art? > > If I notice something that is spectacularly unsuccessful, I don’t try to undefine it from being what it is. A Yugo is still a car. Windows ME was still an operating system. **Qin Shi Huangdi** ’s abortion of a website was still a message board. (Granted, a message board whose content was almost entirely a ginormous picture of a WW2 admiral, but still.) Sarah Palin was still a VP candidate. > > Why this hard-on for bad art? Why are you being such a prescriptivist when it comes to cars? A turnip is a car, a thought is a car, the thought of a turnip is a car. Anything can be a car. Now the thought of a turnip might not get you to work, but who says cars need to be functional? It’s only small-minded, mid-westerners who try and limit cars. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/150 "2012-08-19T22:09:57Z")
> [@Slithy Tove](#): > > Neither had had happy lives growing up, and so they, by their own admission, created worlds as they wished could be, not as they were. Even those dead civil rights workers? Oh yeah, [not nude](http://musical-cinema.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/adam-and-eve.html), but I think it’s pretty cool anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/151 "2012-08-19T22:14:18Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > Why not address what I wrote instead of what you wished I would have. I made no “bold proclamation”, I said “IMO”. Saying they had no soul, IMO is the same as saying they didn’t move me. > > I am an artist. I have had several successful shows and openings. I have taught art and have sold art internationally. I also worked for quite a few years as an illustrator and a graphic artist. None of that, however, makes my opinion about art more valid than yours. Art is subjective. But I do have an opinion as a maker of both kinds of art. And my opinion is that Rockwell was a talented draftsman, craftsman and illustrator - not a true artist. Fair enough. I apologize for reading too much into your prior post. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/152 "2012-08-19T22:19:48Z")
In other words, Rockwell was not a true artist because he had broad appeal, whereas the anal didldo dancers are true artists because they have a very limited appeal to a self-appointed and self-annointed cadre. I figure that they are all artists, going in their own directions, with their own followings. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/153 "2012-08-19T22:38:27Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > In other words, Rockwell was not a true artist because he had broad appeal, whereas the anal didldo dancers are true artists because they have a very limited appeal to a self-appointed and self-annointed cadre. Which post here did you get \*that \*idea from? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/154 "2012-08-19T22:45:23Z")
In the great tradition of Cloaca, Canned Artist Shit, and the Dildo Dancers, I pulled it out of my ass. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/155 "2012-08-19T23:14:29Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > In the great tradition of Cloaca, Canned Artist Shit, and the Dildo Dancers, I pulled it out of my ass. Now _that’s_ art. A round of applause for Muffin! I have a more practical view of these matters. Back in the neighborhood we weren’t too sophisticated, but we knew what we liked - and what we liked were cliches. That said, I say that if there’s a box office, then it’s art. So Dancing on a Dildo qualifies as does Canned Artist Crapola, but I’m afraid Muffin’s _Post Contemplating on Western Art_ does not. It grieves me too. > [@PlainJain](#): > > …And my opinion is that Rockwell was a talented draftsman, craftsman and illustrator - not a true artist. Back when I was younger, oh say 24 hours ago, I used to take that position. But now I figure that to the extent that Rockwell’s craft was developed in Art School, then he’s probably an artist, as is any other -er- graphic artist. As it happens, I don’t much care for Rockwell’s work: I find the emotions that he depicts to be overwrought and unrealistic. But you can find any number of works in the 19th century Western Canon that strike me the same way. So I dislike Rockwell because I’m a philistine -salt of the earth really- and not a snob. I used to think that art was a combination of craft and theme. Rockwell’s work has both. So **Jane** -seriously- by what criteria is Rockwell’s work not art? It seems you think it lacks soul. Are you saying the themes he worked on are too banal? That can’t be right, given Rembrandt’s subject matter. I agree Rockwell’s work doesn’t challenge me too much (though Karl’s counter-examples are much appreciated, and I’ve read professional critics who think Rockwell was under-rated). So while I can think of a lot of art that I consider _better_, I’m having trouble putting Rockwell in a different category than any other artist working on a commission with strict commercial restrictions. Hm. Maybe that’s it. “Strict commercial restrictions.” The problem _there_ is that, uncomfortably, commercial pressures can be good for art at times. Some of the experimental stuff is pretty banal after all, though it can provide a certain frisson. ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/156 "2012-08-20T01:19:47Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Suck my cock you self righteous asshole. Ah, I miss New York. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/157 "2012-08-20T03:29:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > A dildo up a dancer’s butt is fuckin’ hilarious; and farce **is** art. All I know is that Shakespeare’s greatest farce was the one that blew all the stained glass out of the cathedral. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/158 "2012-08-20T04:15:09Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > All I know is that Shakespeare’s greatest farce was the one that blew all the stained glass out of the cathedral. And Chaucer’s was fart interrupted analingus. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/159 "2012-08-20T06:01:20Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Definitely: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist\_realism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_realism) > > Compare this to Jackson Pollock or Andy Warhol… If you’re ever in Pittsburgh, visit the Warhol museum. I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised. I was, actually. I’m still not a huge fan of his work, but it’s still pretty cool. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892/160 "2012-08-20T08:00:48Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > Ah, I miss New York. It’s understandable. Some of us, when boarding a train, always wish we could ride in the engine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-mr-ny-times-art-critic-a-dildo-up-your-butt-is-not-art/631892.md?page=9)