[QUOTE=Stratocaster]
There is an enormous difference, IMO, between a stupid act and an innocent oversight. Obviously YMMV.
[/QUOTE]
That may very well be true, but as with so many things on life, both may have similar (if not identical) consequences.
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.]
That may very well be true, but as with so many things on life, both may have similar (if not identical) consequences.
[/QUOTE]
Which does not, of course, mean that we should conclude that any instance where said consequences occur are fair. That’s the essence of the OP’s question. Just answering, that’s all. I harbor no illusions that all dictatorial teachers will abandon their practices by virtue of my posting in this thread.
[QUOTE=DianaG]
You’re kidding me, right?
“Oh my goodness, how could you *possibly * expect these kids to remember to *write their names * on their work, like they’ve done on every single worksheet, homework assignment, test, and friggin’ fingerpainting they’ve done for the past eight years?!?!!? Why are you so meeeeeeeeean?!?!?!”
[/QUOTE]
It’s perfectly reasonable to expect them to fill out their names, so don’t keep throwing rocks at your straw man. The question is whether or not a 10% reduction in the grade is excessive when they forget. Many think it is. You don’t. Take a deep breath and try to keep the drama to a minimum.
[QUOTE=DianaG]
You’re kidding me, right?
[/QUOTE]
You asked how it was possible, I gave you my opinion of how it’s possible. Obviously, it happened, so there must have been possible for it to happen, and I suggested a method by which it happened.
You, OTOH, seem to think it’s impossible for a student to forget to put his name, are you suggesting the lack of a name was deliberate?
For those who think a reduction in grade for lack of name is harsh, perhaps you would prefer doing it the military way, to wit:
"You will be given ONE SHEET of paper and ONE pencil. Do not take more than one sheet of paper. Place the pencil on your desk in front of you. Do not write anything on the paper until told to do so.
"If you break a pencil point, you will be given one, and only one, replacement. We can’t afford to repeatly replace broken pencils, you clowns, so don’t even think about it.
"You are all a bunch of pussies.
"When told, you WILL write your ONE complete name on the upper left corner of the front sheet of the paper with the pencil provided, and ONLY the pencil provided. That’s the UPPER LEFT – your military left – ONLY. Writing it on the right corner, the back side, more than one place or giving an incomplete name will result in an AUTOMATIC FAILURE.
"Morons.
"Below your name write your complete social security number. It must be BELOW your name. That’s “below” as in military “below”. ABOVE will invalidate the test. SSN will be verified and any mistakes will throw out your test. Lack of SSN will also result in failure.
"A SSN is not all zeros or 9’s, so you can’t fool us. We’ve seen all those tricks before.
"Do not give your name as Mickey Mouse or Donald Dick.
"Idiots. Whatzamatta, on the rag?
"Do not pick up the pencil until told to so so. Johnny, PUT THAT PENCIL DOWN or EVERYONE will fail this class, not just you.
"Jerkwads.
“You will now commence writing your name. You have until oh-three hundred. When done, place the pencil on the desk…”
[QUOTE=Rhiannon8404]
There is a huge difference between consequence and punishment.
[/QUOTE]
Yes; the difference is that a “consequence” is a punishment that you’re to cowardly to admit to dealing out.
The consequence of turning a paper in with no name is that it creates a little extra work for the teacher, and if the teacher is lazy/power-tripping, she’ll punish you rather than doing her job, albeit a rather annoying part of said job.
Yes, and I’d take no credit over having a branding, so therefore no credit must be fine, too. Me smart!
Name: athelas____________
No, I’m suggesting that forgetting to sign your paper is a stupid thing to do, no matter how it happened, and doing stupid things generally results in unpleasant consequences. This is a concept that most people grasp long before they reach seventh grade, so I don’t understand the insistence that the teacher is being petty, or mean. They were warned, they failed to abide by the warning, and they received the exact consequence they were told they’d receive. Where’s the unfairness?
[QUOTE=Stratocaster]
The horror.So, does just filling in one’s name mean only 90 points remain to possibly be reduced for the final grade?
[/QUOTE]
Sure, I can live with that.
As for the folks talking about how the teacher should have the student write a paper, or stay after school cleaning erasers or whatever, when are they going to have time to do this? Isn’t the final customarily given on the last day of the year? Correct me if I’m wrong here, of course.
Let me clarify that my definition of “consequence” is in its usage in the educational sphere. Naturally, in the real world, there are sometimes consequences that are dealt out by impersonal forces and not just an authority figure trying to dodge responsibility.
Raguleader, I’m sure it’s not the case everywhere, but in a lot of places, especially at the elementary and junior high school level, the kids are sent home on the last day *with * their report cards, so the finals must be given in time for the teacher to be able to submit their grades about a week before, I’d think.
[QUOTE=athelas]
…an authority figure trying to dodge responsibility.
[/QUOTE]
What evidence do you have that the teacher mentioned in the OP is doing this? It is entirely possible that he doesn’t give a rat’s ass about having to do a little detective work, but rather is trying to instill in his students a sense of responsibility and attention to detail.
As a college student, I still say that teaching student to follow instructions has to be enforced. I’ve had professors that put a multiple choice answer in the exam instructions just to see who reads them. I’ve had professors put detailed instructions on what pages to put your name on because they took apart the tests to grade each section seperately. In lectures with 200 students, I’m sure it was hell for TAs when people didn’t pay attention to detail and follow simple instructions. The point of school is to teach academics and life-skills and prepare you. I don’t think this is detrimental to any of those goals. And if nothing else, it teaches that life is NOT fair.
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever]
Ten percent on homework is much different than ten percent on a final exam. A seventh grade final exam, at that.
No amount of punishment is going to stop someone from legitimately forgetting to sign their name to their paper. I don’t think I’ve ever done it, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not impossible.
[/QUOTE]
I would never take points off for forgetting to write your name. I make mistakes in class too, forgetting to grab the pile of papers to return back or something and I would like basic consideration that people make errors.
If someone is so careless that they habitually forget their name on papers, the rest of the work will sink their grade all by itself.
I teach upper level college students, so this issue may come up more for other people. But to me, what’s the big deal?
Now good penmanship is my issue- I will only work so hard to decipher what you are trying to tell me.
[QUOTE=DianaG]
Where’s the unfairness?
[/QUOTE]
The unfairness has to do with the nature of the consequence. I submit that there are levels of punishment for this stupid act which are unfair, even if you are warned beforehand. Failing the course, being expelled, decapitation, the destruction of the human race, take your pick, one of these punishments must be unfairly severe.
If you can admit that, the only question left is “how much is too much?” Some of us feel that 10% is too much, others don’t.
Stepping back from the specific example, the OP seems to me to pose the question, If an instructor has an instruction for an assignment, and has described the consequences of not doing it, and a student doesn’t do it, is that fair?
The question of whether the instruction will seem legitmate to everyone or the punishment “draconian” are additional, but separate isses embedded in the first question.
[QUOTE=Shoshana]
Stepping back from the specific example, the OP seems to me to pose the question, If an instructor has an instruction for an assignment, and has described the consequences of not doing it, and a student doesn’t do it, is that fair?
The question of whether the instruction will seem legitmate to everyone or the punishment “draconian” are additional, but separate isses embedded in the first question.
[/QUOTE]
How can that be? How are they a tangent to answering the issue of whether or not it’s fair? The issue is not, “Were the students forewarned?” That’s a given. The issue is whether or not the punishment is too harsh. (It’s in the thread title, see? ;))
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
The unfairness has to do with the nature of the consequence. I submit that there are levels of punishment for this stupid act which are unfair, even if you are warned beforehand. Failing the course, being expelled, decapitation, the destruction of the human race, take your pick, one of these punishments must be unfairly severe.
If you can admit that, the only question left is “how much is too much?” Some of us feel that 10% is too much, others don’t.
[/QUOTE]
Well put.
[QUOTE=Raguleader]
Sure, I can live with that.
[/QUOTE]
Well, at least you’re consistent. I guess I am, too, since I find the notion of giving someone ten points for signing their name disproportionate to the effort required. I’d rather my son had to study.
[QUOTE=hawksgirl]
The point of school is to teach academics and life-skills and prepare you.
[/quote]
Well, I think the counter to this is that in reality, the point of school is whatever the teacher says it is. There are certainly teachers who do NOT deduct 10% for no name. Anyway, the point is that some people feel that a teacher who defines that portion of success thusly has crappy priorities. Obviously you disagree.
So you allow this is unfair, but think that’s okay since it will prepare the student for future injustices? Okee-dokee.
I work in a medical billing office. Every day, every single day, we get phone calls from people who make every claim that it’s not their responsibility to fill out the paperwork properly, it’s our responsibility to make sure the patient gives us the correct information, it’s our job to make sure they’re not signing an agreement they don’t agree with, or giving us the wrong insurance card, or forgetting which date they were injured, or what their Social Security Number is. They sign waivers that say “If my insurance doesn’t pay this bill, I agree to pay this bill,” and then when their insurance doesn’t they claim it’s not their fault.
I don’t have much sympathy for such people, but I don’t like our policies on the matter, either. The fact is, our administrator says if the address that the patient gives comes back as undeliverable, or if the patient doesn’t answer the warning letter, their account is turned over to a collection agency automatically. He doesn’t want us wasting our time tracking that patient down, calling the doctor to verify the address, calling the patient at home and waiting for the patient to call back, or any of that. Step 1 is collections, no warning.
Yes, it’s draconian. It happens. It’s not going to vanish simply because we stop teaching that awful, terrible truth in schools.
The reason we have that policy is because some people go to amazing lengths not to pay bills. Not because of honest mistakes, but because they’re jerks and will manipulate every available loophole. “You didn’t call me first, you can’t send me to collections, I read it in the Constipation or something, nyah nyah!” Yeah, buddy, we can and do.
On the other hand, if the person makes an honest effort to contact us and straighten stuff out, we can sometimes work around that consequence and get the thing taken care of.
MandaJo’s response is best. Begin with the harshest punishment: zero credit. If the student wants to take the effort to fix it, no harm no foul.