# No, nothing barbaric about this (death penalty rant) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347 "2014-04-30T10:29:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/21 "2014-04-30T12:48:02Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I suppose people who ran the Underground Railroad were responsible for the beatings suffered by captured runaway slaves. Would the captured runaway slaves have not been beaten if they’d escaped _without_ assistance? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/22 "2014-04-30T12:50:55Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I have yet to understand why there is such a fooraw over lethal injection. Why don’t we simply fire a single round into the base of the skull, right where the spine comes in? It would be totally painless; it would turn them off like a light switch. And I do believe that a .38 cartridge is a LOT cheaper than a batch of drugs. I think there are two main reasons, one bad and one good – the bad reason is just politics and optics: the idea that an injection is somehow less barbaric and violent, and more civilized, than a bullet to the brain. The good reason is that someone has to do be the executioner: I think that it’s very likely that shooting multiple people in the back of the head would be far, far more damaging to one’s psyche than injecting multiple people with drugs. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/23 "2014-04-30T12:51:32Z")
Many wouldn’t have attempted escape had they not known of the Underground Railroad. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/24 "2014-04-30T12:53:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I admit it’s legal, and I admit it’s constitutional, to get those out of the way. But therefore it is neither cruel nor unusual. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/25 "2014-04-30T12:54:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But therefore it is neither cruel nor unusual. > > Regards, > Shodan But it is inhumane. Cruelty implies a motive, and there was no motive for suffering here. But it was inhumane all the same. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/26 "2014-04-30T12:58:15Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > The US is a strange country - it’s like a third world nation but with lots of money and a fantastic cultural and technological core. We’re a highly consumerist yet not especially educated society, and market research (aka “elections”) shows that our larger customer demographic wants capital punishment. Lethal injection wasn’t designed to be less painful and messy for the condemned, it was designed to be less messy and painful for the administrators and witnesses. So, in our never-ending quest to bring you the product you want in the format that best suits you, we are all exited about our impending roll-out of nitrogen hypoxia chambers as the Next Big Thing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/27 "2014-04-30T13:32:07Z")
What’s the fuss? We are a barbaric people. We do enhanced interrogations when simple questioning would do, we bomb weddings on a somewhat regular basis, we imprison a higher percent of our population than any other nation in history, we worship wealth and humiliate the poor. We engage in preemptive wars on grounds that are lies and stupid lies at that. We legalize and allow and encourage or legislators to be bribed and bought, calling it speech. We waste our law enforcement efforts on marijuana, which is basically the same as people getting drunk. We are a nasty, stupid, venal people. When one stupid old coot blathers in private his stupid, hateful prejudices, we congratulate ourselves that we are better than him. (Hint: we aren’t.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/28 "2014-04-30T13:33:37Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > What’s the fuss? We are a barbaric people. We do enhanced interrogations when simple questioning would do, we bomb weddings on a somewhat regular basis, we imprison a higher percent of our population than any other nation in history, we worship wealth and humiliate the poor. We engage in preemptive wars on grounds that are lies and stupid lies at that. We legalize and allow and encourage or legislators to be bribed and bought, calling it speech. We waste our law enforcement efforts on marijuana, which is basically the same as people getting drunk. We are a nasty, stupid, venal people. Well you should have seen our ancestors! We’re the height of compassion compared to those bastards. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/29 "2014-04-30T13:34:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Is it? Doesn’t it violate the “cruel” in “cruel and unusual” if there is excessive, prolonged pain? The constitution explicitly lists the death penalty as an acceptable punishment, so one would expect to need an amendment explicitly outlawing it to make it unconstitutional. The fact of the matter is, though, keeping the death penalty as an option in the US enjoys much more than 50% support. In fact, I don’t think a US presidential candidate opposed to the death penalty would be electable, yet. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/30 "2014-04-30T13:48:59Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I have yet to understand why there is such a fooraw over lethal injection. Why don’t we simply fire a single round into the base of the skull, right where the spine comes in? It would be totally painless; it would turn them off like a light switch. And I do believe that a .38 cartridge is a LOT cheaper than a batch of drugs. But it isn’t about actually killing someone painlessly. It’s about making it look like he’s being killed painlessly, in a neat, sanitized pseudo-medical way that looks as little like killing as possible. Shooting someone in the head with a big bullet is bloody, doesn’t look at all neat & clinical, and in general looks like exactly what it is: killing someone. And we don’t want that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/31 "2014-04-30T13:58:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But therefore it is neither cruel nor unusual. Yes, agreed. As those terms are used in the Eighth Amendment, the death penalty is not cruel or unusual. But it’s barbaric. Thus the title of my OP, and the final two sentences thereof. I am arguing that it should be stopped not by judicial decree, but by legislative or executive action, because it’s fucking barbaric. And because we, the people, are the ultimate source of sovereign power in this country, the shame of such barbarism done in our names, with our sovereign power, lies on our heads. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/32 "2014-04-30T13:58:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The death penalty is a barbaric exercise of state power. And the ugliness of what happened here showcases the barbarity. I’m a bit confused about the point you are making. If I follow your logic, every time a person is put to death by the state and it goes perfectly—peaceful, no struggling—is that then an argument _in favor of_ the death penalty? Perhaps you were just being to cute by half by trying to use “barbarity” twice. Now, I do understand that you are both against the death penalty generally and find this particular attempt to be barbaric. But when arguing the former, a specific incident really doesn’t come into it, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/33 "2014-04-30T14:01:41Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > What’s the fuss? We are a barbaric people. We do enhanced interrogations when simple questioning would do, we bomb weddings on a somewhat regular basis, we imprison a higher percent of our population than any other nation in history, we worship wealth and humiliate the poor. We engage in preemptive wars on grounds that are lies and stupid lies at that. We legalize and allow and encourage or legislators to be bribed and bought, calling it speech. We waste our law enforcement efforts on marijuana, which is basically the same as people getting drunk. We are a nasty, stupid, venal people. > > When one stupid old coot blathers in private his stupid, hateful prejudices, we congratulate ourselves that we are better than him. (Hint: we aren’t.) You call out a great many practices, and I don’t share your opinions on most of them. So this country can continue debating how we should best handle wealth, or the poor. But are you saying that these issues must be resolved before we can address the death penalty? Or can we say that while we don’t agree about wealth and the poor, we certainly agree that killing people who are already imprisoned for their crimes is a barbaric and horrible thing for a state to do? ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/34 "2014-04-30T14:02:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am arguing that it should be stopped not by judicial decree, but by legislative or executive action, because it’s fucking barbaric. And because we, the people, are the ultimate source of sovereign power in this country, the shame of such barbarism done in our names, with our sovereign power, lies on our heads. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/35 "2014-04-30T14:03:40Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m a bit confused about the point you are making. If I follow your logic, every time a person is put to death by the state and it goes perfectly—peaceful, no struggling—is that then an argument _in favor of_ the death penalty? > > Perhaps you were just being to cute by half by trying to use “barbarity” twice. Now, I do understand that you are both against the death penalty generally and find this particular attempt to be barbaric. But when arguing the former, a specific incident really doesn’t come into it, does it? No, I’m saying that this kind of ghastly exercise highlights the barbarity: that even when we supposedly have crafted a sterile, “humane” method of killing imprisoned human beings, we have no real guarantee that it will work as advertised, and its failure tears down the gauzy curtain we have attempted to use to shroud the harsh reality. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/36 "2014-04-30T14:07:47Z")
Agreeing with **Bricker** and **Budget Player Cadet** and **Frank** … the second coming will soon be upon us. Thank god **magellan01** still has his marbles about him. > [@Smapti](#): > > Anti-death-penalty advocates are directly responsible for this and I hope they’re happy that they made a human being suffer needlessly in order to fulfill their ideological crusade. I find this particularly ironic from a person advocating murder to fulfill their ideological crusade. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/37 "2014-04-30T14:11:03Z")
> [@LibrarySpy](#): > > I find this particularly ironic from a person advocating murder to fulfill their ideological crusade. When have I ever advocated murder? ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/38 "2014-04-30T14:19:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Well you should have seen our ancestors! We’re the height of compassion compared to those bastards. Too true. If you have ancestors, my ancestors made their lives (and those of some of my _other_ ancestors) a living hell at some point. They didn’t wait until they had something to punish you for, it was how they made ends meet. Let’s be glad we’ve spent at least a century or so trying to spruce up our image. That said, I was surprised that **Bricker** opened this thread, but I do agree. I’m generally against the death penalty because it’s irreconcilable in the case of error, and it’s inherently going to have violent aspects to it. To borrow a term from my industry, living things just aren’t designed to be shut down gracefully. Even then, I understand that I’m in the minority. I evangelize about the subject when I think I will make headway, but that’s a slow process. If the state is going to kill people while that work is done, it should be in the most painless way possible. To that end : From the recent news on stowaways in airplane landing gear, I understand a slow death from oxygen deprivation and gradual hypothermia is a relatively painless way to go. The drugs used to put me out for a medical procedure were old enough to be available as a generic, and should be able to keep the person sedated long enough to keep them from undue stress. Is this method unacceptable because of drug availability, problems identifying when the person is dead, or some other reason I haven’t guessed yet? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/39 "2014-04-30T14:21:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am arguing that it should be stopped not by judicial decree, but by legislative or executive action, because it’s fucking barbaric. And because we, the people, are the ultimate source of sovereign power in this country, the shame of such barbarism done in our names, with our sovereign power, lies on our heads. Executive action? How would that be constitutional? I guess the prez could commute all death penalties for federal crimes, but could he do so for state sentences? Or, are you thinking all 50 governors would follow suit? We are, unfortunately, a long, long way from eliminating this at the ballot box nation wide. Fortunately, there are quite a few states that have taken that step, but even in Lefty-Lefty California, it’s still on the books. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/40 "2014-04-30T14:25:04Z")
It’s interesting that this botched execution is what might help the issue get some traction again. The most horrible part, in my view, is that it’s applied in a discriminatory way, and a significant number of death penalty convictions are wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347.md?page=3)