# No, nothing barbaric about this (death penalty rant) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347 "2014-04-30T10:29:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/101 "2014-04-30T23:51:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The death penalty is not murder. Interesting. So we take a guy who is alive, put him in a room, then we kill him, and when he’s wheeled out of the room, he’s dead. This is not murder? Riiiight, and your quoted statement isn’t denial. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/102 "2014-05-01T00:02:51Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Interesting. So we take a guy who is alive, put him in a room, then we kill him, and when he’s wheeled out of the room, he’s dead. > This is not murder? > Riiiight, and your quoted statement isn’t denial. No, he’s right. It’s not murder. It’s killing, yes, but murder refers to unlawful killing. That has absolutely no bearing on how barbaric it is. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/103 "2014-05-01T00:23:15Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Interesting. So we take a guy who is alive, put him in a room, then we kill him, and when he’s wheeled out of the room, he’s dead. > This is not murder? > Riiiight, and your quoted statement isn’t denial. “Murder” is one of those words that has a moral/ethical definition and a legal one. The death penalty, generally, will not be murder under a legal definition, because it’s a killing done by the state under the state’s laws, and therefore it’s generally going to be legal. Now, you and I might say it’s “legalized murder” or something like that, or that we consider it murder because it is heinous, etc. Just as most people in 2014 America would say that men in the 30s were guilty of raping their wives even if the law said it was legal to have sex with their wives even when the wives didn’t consent. IOW, that it was impossible to rape your own wife. So, I’m guessing you two aren’t using the same definition of murder. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/104 "2014-05-01T00:46:48Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Is death unacceptable, or is it the being involved in never-ending litigation (and all the discovery headaches that go along with it) over being a party to capital punishment? I think that a distinction without a difference. Except, the suggestion that pharmaceutical companies find the death penalty unacceptable on practical rather than moral grounds presents the death penalty in even a worse light, imo. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/105 "2014-05-01T00:49:21Z")
Whatever it takes to make a person in denial feel better, then. “Yeah, yeah, I might have killed the bastard…but at least I didn’t _murder_ him!” (rimshot) ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/106 "2014-05-01T00:50:09Z")
> [@j666](#): > > I think that a distinction without a difference. > > Except, the suggestion that pharmaceutical companies find the death penalty unacceptable on practical rather than moral grounds presents the death penalty in even a worse light, imo. The practical grounds being pressure and fear of boycotts by anti-DP types. Which is yet another argument for hanging - nobody is ever going to drive the rope industry out of business. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/107 "2014-05-01T01:09:43Z")
> [@j666](#): > > I’m in the medical products industry; I can’t tell you how dirty this makes me feel. We could avoid these horror stories simply by amending the Hippocratic Oath, to allow actual licensed doctors to perform the procedure. I don’t see why it’s such a problem anyway, since many doctors routinely end someone’s life, whether it’s switching off life support after all viable organs have been harvested, or surgically removing a parasitic conjoined twin who has no viability on its own but threatens the other twin’s life. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/108 "2014-05-01T01:12:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, he’s right. It’s not murder. It’s killing, yes, but murder refers to unlawful killing. > > That has absolutely no bearing on how barbaric it is. I’d just like to say I pretty much agree with you completely on this subject. It’s nice that you are on the right side once in awhile. \<3 I’d also say that nitrogen or a 500 pound block on greased rails pulverizing the head is a better way to go, if we decide that we have to keep on killing. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/109 "2014-05-01T01:12:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The practical grounds being pressure and fear of boycotts by anti-DP types That might work in the EU, but I challenge anyone in the U.S. to name the manufacturer of the drugs in the medicine cabinet right now. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/110 "2014-05-01T01:27:34Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > We could avoid these horror stories simply by amending the Hippocratic Oath, to allow actual licensed doctors to perform the procedure. I’m not in medical care; I don’t care about the oath. I don’t like working in an industry that professes to be dedicated to helping people that produces products to kill them. That is hypocritical to the nth, in which n = nasty. ---
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/111 "2014-05-01T02:33:35Z")
I almost feel as though I’d rather, say, the guillotine or a firing squad be used instead of injections. Most people advocating for lethal injections probably wouldn’t be in favor of using a guillotine - and why? It’s a relatively painless way to die, especially when compared with botched jobs like this. But it reminds you of what you’re doing: once you remove the white coats, the needles, the sterile environment, the medical atmosphere - the government is legally killing healthy human beings. If you’re going to endorse that, at least be honest about it, and let the heads roll. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/112 "2014-05-01T02:46:53Z")
I’ve been a victim of crime multiple times (including a mugging at gunpoint where I would gladly see the motherfucker flogged) and I still agree with the OP. The problem with the DP is that it is far more expensive than ordinary trials (I’ve seen estimates as high as three million per trial) and that we could be easily executing innocent people. This haunting [Frontline documentary](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/death-by-fire/) makes the highly disturbing case that Texas did in fact execute Cameron Todd Willingham when it is clear he was innocent of the charges against him. A recent report estimates that there are over [one hundred innocent people on death row right now.](http://time.com/79572/more-innocent-people-on-death-row-than-estimated-study/) We need to abolish the DP. I’m very disappointed that Obama has not done more to push that message. We also need a major reform of our criminal justice system where we stop locking up people for using marijuana and emphasize drug treatment over incarceration but that’s a different thread. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/113 "2014-05-01T02:54:41Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > We could avoid these horror stories simply by amending the Hippocratic Oath, to allow actual licensed doctors to perform the procedure. The Hippocratic oath does not have any force of law or regulation behind it, and no doctor is required to take it before practicing medicine. Altering the oath isn’t going to change how medicine is actually practiced one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/114 "2014-05-01T03:04:09Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Hard to believe that a society that routinely and humanely puts animals to sleep can’t figure out how to do the same for murderous humans. Veterinarians know what they are doing. Doctors, the people who know how to do such a thing to a human refuse to perform executions. > [@Bozuit](#): > > Bullshit. No experimentation is necessary. I’m not a pharmacist, doctor or anything remotely close to it, but if the State of Oklahoma really can’t figure out how to kill someone with drugs more effectively than that, I’ll use my super over-80 IQ to come up with some suggestions. It’s not just about being effective, they could just use a gun or an axe if being effective is what mattered. They want something that looks as clinical and as little like killing as possible. Which means they want something that paralyses the person quickly with no unsightly writhing or screaming. > [@Debaser](#): > > I have a question about the details of this accident. There are usually a series of chemicals injected, right? The first one puts you out and then others kill you. [All three](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_injection#Procedure_in_U.S._executions) are supposed to kill you, eventually. One is supposed to knock you unconscious, another is supposed to cause heart failure. And one is a paralytic, it makes sure that even if the others aren’t used right the subject won’t be able to make noises or movements to disturb the spectators, such as happened in this case. > [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > FWIW, I think this guy suffers just as much with the previous set of drugs, given they appear to have been injected mostly subcutaneously or otherwise outside of a major blood vessel. Had to be painful as hell for him, given the reports of “burning” from being administered potassium chloride IV. Yes, that’s why one of the drugs causes paralysis. They might feel like they are on fire, but they can’t move. > [@buddha\_david](#): > > We could avoid these horror stories simply by amending the Hippocratic Oath, to allow actual licensed doctors to perform the procedure. What makes you think they’d agree to either amend their oath or to execute people? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/115 "2014-05-01T03:27:42Z")
Just the very idea of accidentally executing an innocent person is enough for me to be against the death penalty. The fact that our justice system has also been known to execute even those found to be mentally retarded is equally vile. The ONLY way I would approve of the death penalty would be in extreme cases, like Hitler, or Osama Bin Laden or someone like that. Otherwise, it’s too disturbing and barbaric, as **Bricker** noted. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/116 "2014-05-01T03:29:24Z")
Oh, heck, everyday practice! Examine patients, write prescriptions, separate conjoined twins, participate in executions. Totally routine. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/117 "2014-05-01T03:59:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That has absolutely no bearing on how barbaric it is. How do you define barbaric? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/118 "2014-05-01T04:15:48Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > The ONLY way I would approve of the death penalty would be in extreme cases, like Hitler, or Osama Bin Laden or someone like that. Otherwise, it’s too disturbing and barbaric, as **Bricker** noted. So, it’s terribly disturbing and barbaric, except when it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/119 "2014-05-01T13:05:02Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > It’s nice that you are on the right side once in awhile. \<3 Right back atcha, sport. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347/120 "2014-05-01T13:10:19Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > How do you define barbaric? Barbaric means characteristic of a cultural level above that of disorganized savagery but considerably less sophisticated and humane than the standards of current advanced civilization. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-nothing-barbaric-about-this-death-penalty-rant/687347.md?page=7)