# No NY Subways to NJ. Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 7, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136 "2014-03-07T18:49:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/21 "2014-03-07T21:23:49Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Meanwhile, the “Port Authority” is an interstate group responsible for all operations of the port area. As the commuter trains and ferry terminals began to get overlaoded, they decided to build the PATH trains to connect NYC and the Jersey cities across the river. “Port Authority of NY-NJ” is most likely your answer along with the union ‘mentality’ of boundaries not to be crossed regardless if it helps or hurts the people it serves. The Tappan Zee Bridge is such a prime example - build in a non-sensical place costing far more then needed just to get outside the range of the Port Authority. They ‘own’ the river crossings within a certain radius of NYC. Lets rephrase that The Port Authority Pwns those crossings and gets to decide what happen based on their economic interest. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/22 "2014-03-07T22:00:02Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Meanwhile, the “Port Authority” is an interstate group responsible for all operations of the port area. As the commuter trains and ferry terminals began to get overlaoded, they decided to build the PATH trains to connect NYC and the Jersey cities across the river. What??? The tube construction started in the late 1800’s and was completed and fully operational in the early 1900’s as the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad. That’s what all the H&M signs at PATH stations refer to. The Port Authority had absolutely nothing to do with the operations of the PATH trains until the 1960’s, when they had to agree to buy and run H&M as part of the deal to build the WTC. Part of the WTC site was where the H&M lower Manhattan terminal was located, two office buildings above ground and a full station below ground. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/23 "2014-03-07T22:07:11Z")
A few weeks ago, I saw the PBS American Experience episode, [The Rise and Fall of Penn Station](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/penn/), about the construction of Pennsylvania Station in Manhattan (which was demolished before I was even born, but which looked great). It described how the Pennsylvania Railroad built tunnels under the Hudson and East Rivers as part of its plan to extend its reach into Manhattan and New England. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/24 "2014-03-07T22:08:33Z")
Topologist: > [@](#): > > (In fact, I don’t know of a commonly used term that refers to the island, as opposed to the Island.) The New York Islanders hockey team could arguably be said to fit that bill if they don’t change their name after they move to the Barclay’s Center in Brooklyn. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/25 "2014-03-07T22:14:23Z")
There also the super old fashioned name for the Hudson train tunnels “the Hudson tubes”, used I believe ca. 1909. Signs pointing the way to the Tubes can be seen at Cortlandt street R station. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/26 "2014-03-07T22:22:43Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > I think NYC’s subway must be a little different, because it’s so much older than most and was conceived as an urban transit system. New York was and is a major rail center, and the needs of what suburban commuters there were in those days were already being met by the intercity rail lines that converged in Manhattan. For many in LI and elsewhere, the intercity routes still serve their needs. Chicago is fairly similar to New York in this regard. The CTA’s L (equivalent to the NYC subway), much of which was built before WWII, primarily serves the city proper, although there are several routes which extend into nearby suburbs. Commuters who come into the city by train from other suburbs (particularly the more distant suburbs) use Metra trains – those lines were run by private railroads until the early 1970s, when the Regional Transportation Authority took the lines over (at about the same time that Amtrak took over the long-distance passenger trains from the railroads). These trains are probably more similar to the commuter rail lines run by NJ Transit or LIRR. ---
**Author:** ![Topologist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/topologist/32/3208_2.png) [@Topologist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Topologist)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/27 "2014-03-07T22:31:11Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > A few weeks ago, I saw the PBS American Experience episode, [The Rise and Fall of Penn Station](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/penn/), about the construction of Pennsylvania Station in Manhattan (which was demolished before I was even born, but which looked great). It described how the Pennsylvania Railroad built tunnels under the Hudson and East Rivers as part of its plan to extend its reach into Manhattan and New England. The building that died that others may live. Sigh. There’s a sign just above the stairs down into the LIRR platform in Penn Station saying “You are here” with a drawing of the old Penn Station. Always makes me a little sad. Pennsy did extend its reach into Manhattan and Long Island: It owned the LIRR for the first half of the 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/28 "2014-03-07T22:38:53Z")
As for Long Island, even near the Queens border was not densely populated. I lived in Queens not terribly far from the Nassau County border, and subways didn’t reach us. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/29 "2014-03-09T03:22:43Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Chicago is fairly similar to New York in this regard. And Boston, too, I wouldn’t wonder–the key thing about all these places being that they are older cities, at l’east in terms when they became massive population centers. I know in my last post I singled out NYC, but it’s not the only such city. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/30 "2014-03-09T03:38:24Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > And Boston, too, I wouldn’t wonder–the key thing about all these places being that they are older cities, at l’east in terms when they became massive population centers. I know in my last post I singled out NYC, but it’s not the only such city. They’re also all served by extensive commuter railroads. MBTA in Boston, Metra in Chicago, NJT, LIRR, and MNR in New York. ---
**Author:** ![Topologist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/topologist/32/3208_2.png) [@Topologist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Topologist)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/31 "2014-03-09T04:08:01Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > And Boston, too, I wouldn’t wonder–the key thing about all these places being that they are older cities, at l’east in terms when they became massive population centers. I know in my last post I singled out NYC, but it’s not the only such city. Except that Boston proper is actually very small. The subway system extends well outside the actual city. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/32 "2014-03-09T17:15:32Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > What??? > > The tube construction started in the late 1800’s and was completed and fully operational in the early 1900’s as the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad. That’s what all the H&M signs at PATH stations refer to. > > The Port Authority had absolutely nothing to do with the operations of the PATH trains until the 1960’s, when they had to agree to buy and run H&M as part of the deal to build the WTC. > > Part of the WTC site was where the H&M lower Manhattan terminal was located, two office buildings above ground and a full station below ground. I’d add that the various NY subway lines also date from around the time (what’s now) the PATH train system opened, and like the ‘Hudson tubes’ (aka PATH) they were privately owned, as were the elevated train lines in NY which predated the subway (and grade level trains before that; that’s why there’s a little mall in the middle of Park Avenue, a grade level train line ran there at one time). That is, at one time they were all just different train lines, not one unified city subway system v a smaller Port Authority subway system to NJ as it is now. However it’s still a good question why the current subway system isn’t connected to NJ, and as mentioned the 7 line extension to NJ is a possibility though the politics of that issue illustrate one reason it hasn’t happened before. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/33 "2014-03-10T01:24:04Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > I’d add that the various NY subway lines also date from around the time (what’s now) the PATH train system opened, and like the ‘Hudson tubes’ (aka PATH) they were privately owned, as were the elevated train lines in NY which predated the subway (and grade level trains before that; that’s why there’s a little mall in the middle of Park Avenue, a grade level train line ran there at one time). That is, at one time they were all just different train lines, not one unified city subway system v a smaller Port Authority subway system to NJ as it is now. > > However it’s still a good question why the current subway system isn’t connected to NJ, and as mentioned the 7 line extension to NJ is a possibility though the politics of that issue illustrate one reason it hasn’t happened before. So essentially most such services were franchises granted (sold?) to various operators. “You build the line and we’ll expedite rights of way, in return you have the exclusive right to run this line, no competition, for X years.” I assume IRT, BMT and such were given the franchise from the city, hence not straying out of city limits. I wonder which authority granted an interstate franchise, or was it negotiation with two states? Of course, back then there were already suburban commuter rail lines into the city from the suburbs, so until the urban density passed the city limits subways outside were unnecessary. Considering it can take almost an hour from Manhattan to Coney Island, for example, subway from way past the city limits to downtown (the most likely destination - Manhattan or waterfront Brooklyn and Queens?) would take too long. A limited stop express commuter train would be more useful. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/34 "2014-03-10T01:37:53Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Elsewhere local transit is typically operated by a county or multi-county agency and is often more suburban in character. BART, for instance, has many more miles of track outside of SF proper than it does within it; to a significant degree it’s more about getting people into and out of SF. There aren’t that many routes or stations within the city. BART is not the local San Francisco transit system. It is a regional commuter system (Bay Area Rapid Transit) operated by a regionally elected board. San Francisco’s subway is operated by the San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency (SFMTA), known almost exclusively as Muni. Muni has its own extensive subway and light rail system that operates only within city limits. It can be very confusing to visitors, since some downtown stations are both BART and Muni stops. However, aside from using some of the same stations, the systems are entirely separate, with separate tracks, trains, and payment systems. BART is what people who live elsewhere use to get to and from the city. Muni is what San Franciscans use to travel within the city. ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/35 "2014-03-10T05:04:50Z")
It would cost billions and it would an environmental headache to build the tunnels necessary to run the subway system from Manhattan over to New Jersey. Attempting to bore a tunnel or two through the Palisades alone would be an undertaking so monumental that no one would get behind in this era on NIMBY (Not In My Backyard). Especially with so many people living in Weehawken,Hoboken and Secaucus. Even a subway from Brooklyn to Staten Island (which already has its own rail system) is inconceivable due to the expense and the environmental regulations. And no accommodations where ever made on the Verrazano Bridge for trains to cross it (a la the Benjamin Franklin Bridge in Philly or even the Manhattan Bridge). Had the bridge across the Hudson been built that was going to link Penn Station to the Jersey mainland, it is possible that today there would be subway service into Jersey and maybe even Staten Island from Bayonne. However, according to the PBS series about Penn Station nobody wanted to pay for such a bridge and they decided instead to go with tunnels. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/36 "2014-03-10T05:30:03Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > Even a subway from Brooklyn to Staten Island (which already has its own rail system) is inconceivable due to the expense and the environmental regulations. And no accommodations where ever made on the Verrazano Bridge for trains to cross it (a la the Benjamin Franklin Bridge in Philly or even the Manhattan Bridge). 😕 Trains go over the Manhattan Bridge all the time. If they didn’t, I’m not sure how I’d get to work every day. The upper level even used to have streetcars. ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/37 "2014-03-10T05:35:23Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > 😕 Trains go over the Manhattan Bridge all the time. If they didn’t, I’m not sure how I’d get to work every day. The upper level even used to have streetcars. Yes, I know. I said “a la the Ben Franklin Bridge and the Manhattan Bridge” I have ridden on trains crossing the Manhattan Bridge many times in both directions. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/38 "2014-03-10T06:03:02Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Muni has its own extensive subway and light rail system that operates only within city limits. It can be very confusing to visitors, since some downtown stations are both BART and Muni stops. I’ve always found it confusing but that’s mainly because in L.A. the term “muni(cipal)” usually refers to the bus systems of satellite communities like Culver City and Santa Monica–in contrast to Metro which operates the buses and trains countywide and beyond. I don’t think they have transfers at all anymore, but when they did you’d ask the driver of a Metro bus for a “muni transfer”, which would be good on the Santa Monica bus system, for example. For subway and LRT riders I don’t think this was ever an issue because AFAIK none of the rail lines had yet reached into any area where there was a muni bus line. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/39 "2014-03-10T06:19:45Z")
I think one underlying question is, why doesn’t the _City of New York_ extend into New Jersey? Is such a trans-border municipality forbidden somehow? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136/40 "2014-03-10T07:22:23Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Is such a trans-border municipality forbidden somehow? I don’t think it would be _impossible_, but it would require both states and (I think) Congress to all agree. There are trans-border port authorities and [school districts](http://www.uc.k12.in.us/main/uc-cc-joint-school-district/), so I don’t think anything actually forbids it. It just hasn’t ever been done. The only cities I know of that actively sought unification over a state border were Wendover, Utah and West Wendover, Nevada, but they wanted to move the state line rather than form one city in both states. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-ny-subways-to-nj-why/683136.md?page=3)