# No-one pitted the fuckers burning London down yet? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 8, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998 "2011-08-08T21:56:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/241 "2011-08-10T21:32:12Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > When your house is on fire, you don’t argue, why its on fire, you put the fire out. The riots have to stop, the police (and if necessary the military) need to restore order first. THEN you can discuss the underlying causes all you want. When protests are supressed, they rarely address the underlying causes of the protests, they can just suppress the protests going forward. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/242 "2011-08-10T21:32:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So Israel has never had an underclass that resorted to violence? It has. I’m not in favor. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/243 "2011-08-10T21:33:23Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Then let’s change the political system! If people are so dissatisfied, let’s change it to make it work for us rather than just those at the top. > > March, shout, yell, scream, organise rallies, organise your community to make them aware of the issues, yell at your MP and demand to know why he hasn’t fixed X, Y and Z. There’s nothing on earth except complacency that’s stopping us from making this country the way we want it to be. Rioting and looting and burning is the \*easy \*way - the coward’s way. Making real and legitimate changes without smashing anything or killing anyone - _that’s_ the hard part. The French Revolution was hardly cowardly or easy, same with the Communist revolutions in Russia and China. Ugly, sure, but not easy. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/244 "2011-08-10T21:58:02Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Here’s an easy guide: > > Is he currently throwing rocks or molotov cocktails? If so, he’s a troublemaker; shoot him. What if he’s throwing rocks at rioters threatening to burn down his house? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/245 "2011-08-10T22:21:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “Murderous?” Correct me if I’m wrong, but in three days of rioting, there’s only been one death, correct? Amateurs ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/246 "2011-08-10T22:31:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What if he’s throwing rocks at rioters threatening to burn down his house? I’m sure a degree of collateral damage is already factored in and accepted by those who want to exterminate those they view as worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/247 "2011-08-10T22:32:08Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > So how long before the Army is called out? The government [considered](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/world/europe/10britain.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper) it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/248 "2011-08-10T22:47:48Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > The government [considered](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/world/europe/10britain.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper) it. I would hope they did consider it. I would also hope that if enhanced police presence calms things down, as it does appear to be doing, then they will reject the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/249 "2011-08-10T22:51:47Z")
Also, two quotes from a man who’s son was killed in Birmingham last night - [QUOTE=Tariq Jahan] 1938: “Blacks, Asians, Whites, we all live in the same community. Why do we have to kill one another? What started these riots and what’s escalated them? Why are we doing this? I lost my son. Step forward if you want to lose your sons. Otherwise, calm down and go home,” Mr Jahan tells the BBC. 1936: Tariq Jahan, whose 21-year-old son, Haroon, died after he was run over by a car in Birmingham, has called for people not to resort to vigilantism against rioters and asked his community to ''stand united". [/QUOTE] If he can stand up and say that meeting violence with more violence is not the best way, I can only admire him. Violence, especially from the authorities, _must_ be an absolute last resort. Not that it should ever be ruled out, but I’d rather see it too late than too early. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/250 "2011-08-10T23:07:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What if he’s throwing rocks at rioters threatening to burn down his house? Do you have a cite that people who try do do this actually exist? Throwing rocks is a shitty way of defending yourself unless _you’re_ the one with the mob or you’ve got an unassailable bastion from which you can throw rocks at your leisure. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/251 "2011-08-11T03:02:37Z")
After reading the first two pages of this thread I can’t be arsed to read the rest. Are there \*really \*people rationalizing this shit? I won’t believe there’s even room for debate that these wild bunch of fucking excuses for humanity shouldn’t be stopped cold by whatever means necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/252 "2011-08-11T04:01:20Z")
Apparently you _didn’t_ read the first two pages. Nobody is condoning the violence. Lots of people are attempting to explain it. Did things calm down today? News coverage here is… sparse. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/253 "2011-08-11T04:18:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Apparently you _didn’t_ read the first two pages. Nobody is condoning the violence. Lots of people are attempting to explain it. A lot of people though seem to think that explain = condone. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/254 "2011-08-11T04:36:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A lot of people though seem to think that explain = condone. There’s no point to explaining it for some. Because if you can explain something, it is the first step towards taking steps to stopping it in the future. And that’s the worst thing possible for those who wish to blame the poor and the immigrants for every ill in society. It’s those in politics who talk the hardest line against crime who benefit most from it. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/255 "2011-08-11T04:56:48Z")
I am a pacifist and hate violence. that does not mean I do not understand the frustrations of those who are watching their possibilities for a decent live evaporate. The masses are getting pretty well fucked. Their jobs are being taken abroad. Their safety programs are being slashed. They know damn well the powerful have every intention of doing more damage to their prospects. The plans are to remove programs for the poor , Those who are just taking advantage of the wealthy who have no defenses. I understand why the powerful decry the violence. it is costing them money. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/256 "2011-08-11T06:41:03Z")
^ Yup, that’s about it. Even kids know when they’ve been had. Plus this is a response - a response to the relentless violence done to the life chances of these people by smiling suits working in banks, lobbying, Parliament, etc. You’re allowed to defend yourself still, right? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/257 "2011-08-11T06:43:43Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > After reading the first two pages of this thread I can’t be arsed to read the rest. Are there \*really \*people rationalizing this shit? I won’t believe there’s even room for debate that these wild bunch of fucking excuses for humanity shouldn’t be stopped cold by whatever means necessary. Well, I have read the thread, so I’ll point you towards this post. > [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Some of the folks posting to this thread, intentionally or not, seem to giving the impression that there is no practical police reaction to the rioting between standing idly by and going full Syria on their asses. As usual, things are a bit more subtle than that. > > One may remember all the news articles of recent years naming the UK as one of the most heavily surveilled (via remote cameras) countries on earth. Well, those cameras are being used to identify rioters, and, from widespread news reports, this morning, they are being picked up and charged in the hundreds for the crimes observed. I guess this isn’t as satisfying to some here as a bullet to the head would be, but in the end the net effect is that the most egregious violaters will be in the dock, and explaining why they are clearly seen burning down a pensioner’s house or walking out of a shop with a TV they hadn’t paid for. > > A greater police presence and continuing arrest of persons identified as committing riot-related crimes mean the whole thing will almost certainly run out of steam in the next few days, and probably with very few deaths on either side. That’s a desirable outcome, right? I for one am outraged that the real victims of these riots are being systematically ignored. I’m not talking about the small businessman and I’m certainly not talking about the rioters or the victims of the Tory’s budget cuts.[1] No, the real victims are modern American conservatives who are cheated out an opportunity to quench their bloodlust by the systematic and professional policework of London’s finest. Why can’t the London cops understand that shooting everyone on sight would make American conservatives feel better? After all, to be shot by a cop automatically means you deserve it, especially when there is chaos on the streets. At night. ETA: Another decent post: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14123481&postcount=232](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14123481&postcount=232) [1] i.e. the entire UK. Cutting budgets during recessions leads to deeper recessions and is inexcusable in a highly solvent country. Greece, Spain and Italy are another matter. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/258 "2011-08-11T07:01:32Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > ^ Yup, that’s about it. Even kids know when they’ve been had. Plus this is a response - a response to the relentless violence done to the life chances of these people by smiling suits working in banks, lobbying, Parliament, etc. > > You’re allowed to defend yourself still, right? Do you honestly think this is an organised response, consciously protesting about those points you highlight? Because I have heard almost nothing from the rioters that coherently sets out their complaints. You sound almost like you are relishing this, is that the case? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/259 "2011-08-11T07:04:50Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > [1] i.e. the entire UK. Cutting budgets during recessions leads to deeper recessions and is inexcusable in a highly solvent country. Greece, Spain and Italy are another matter. Why? do they not give an excellent example of what happens sometimes when you don’t make the necessary savings? ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/260 "2011-08-11T08:11:42Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Well, I have read the thread, so I’ll point you towards this post. I for one am outraged that the real victims of these riots are being systematically ignored. I’m not talking about the small businessman and I’m certainly not talking about the rioters or the victims of the Tory’s budget cuts.[1] No, the real victims are modern American conservatives who are cheated out an opportunity to quench their bloodlust by the systematic and professional policework of London’s finest. Why can’t the London cops understand that shooting everyone on sight would make American conservatives feel better? After all, to be shot by a cop automatically means you deserve it, especially when there is chaos on the streets. At night. I like this post. As I, at least, have been saying over and over, this week’s violence is horrible, harmful, and needs to stop immediately. Why are people reading “we should figure out why this is happening and address the causes so we can prevent it happening in the future” as “You know, those guys have a point - hand me a baseball bat and a Molotov cocktail!”? > [@Alessan](#): > > Well, Hitler aside, fire is famously non-discrimatory. Arsonists may set out just to destroy property, but the fire doesn’t care what or who it burns. This is very true; I was responding to a post that separated “arsonists” from “murderers”, which is why I continued the separation of the two categories in my response, but I thoroughly agree. > [@Alessan](#): > > That said, what about the rule of law? Is it more or less important than human life? You know, I honestly don’t think it is (which is why I’m so glad we don’t have the death penalty and it’s unlikely to come back, despite hysterical e-petitions in favour of it). I would much rather have a lawless society in which no one was ever killed than a lawful society that kills people. I don’t think there is anything inherently sacred about laws or rules. This is all in the hypothetical, of course, but yes, I would take human life over a concept or an idea every time. There is just nothing that trumps it. And murdering someone after the fact doesn’t bring back someone they’ve harmed or murdered, or redress some nebulous ‘balance’ in any way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998.md?page=14)