# No-one pitted the fuckers burning London down yet? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 8, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998 "2011-08-08T21:56:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/41 "2011-08-09T09:50:07Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I apologize for that. Thank you. For what it’s worth I do completely agree that the rioting is harmful and needs to stop, but I think people are reacting against the idea that it’s mindless, malicious thugs out to make trouble for no reason at all. That is some of it, possibly most of it, but I don’t think it’s all of it. Laurie Penny, who is usually quite hit and miss for me, [nailed it today](http://pennyred.blogspot.com/2011/08/panic-on-streets-of-london.html): > [@](#): > > Nobody has been watching Tottenham since the television cameras drifted away after the Broadwater Farm riots of 1985. Most of the people who will be writing, speaking and pontificating about the disorder this weekend have absolutely no idea what it is like to grow up in a community where there are no jobs, no space to live or move, and the police are on the streets stopping-and-searching you as you come home from school. The people who do will be waking up this week in the sure and certain knowledge that after decades of being ignored and marginalised and harassed by the police, after months of seeing any conceivable hope of a better future confiscated, they are finally on the news. In one NBC report, a young man in Tottenham was asked if rioting really achieved anything: > > '“Yes,” said the young man. “You wouldn’t be talking to me now if we didn’t riot, would you?” > > “Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night a bit of rioting and looting and look around you.” > > Eavesdropping from among the onlookers, I looked around. A dozen TV crews and newspaper reporters interviewing the young men everywhere…’ > > … > > People riot because it makes them feel powerful, even if only for a night. People riot because they have spent their whole lives being told that they are good for nothing, and they realise that together they can do anything – literally, anything at all. People to whom respect has never been shown riot because they feel they have little reason to show respect themselves, and it spreads like fire on a warm summer night. And now people have lost their homes, and the country is tearing itself apart. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/42 "2011-08-09T09:50:20Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Okay. Then what? Look at what’s going on outside my window here in Tel Aviv: the largest protests in decades, the government acting like it’s shitting its pants, and zero violence. I don’t know if we’ll see any actual results, but up until know it’s been a highly effective and perfectly civil display of strength. The main difference, of course, is that our protests are being led by the middle class, mainly young professionals. Do you see any chance of the London middle class joining \*your \*protests? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/43 "2011-08-09T09:50:32Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > I don’t think budget cuts or the economy have anything to do with these riots. I think a lot of it is just copycat troublemaking by people who want any excuse… Do you think that these things _start_ in healthy societies? Why would so many people be ready for that “excuse,” if there weren’t deep and long-standing problems? > [@Alessan](#): > > Do you see any chance of the London middle class joining \*your \*protests? They’re not mine, I’m an American. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/44 "2011-08-09T09:55:50Z")
Good to see London is more civilized and stable than Detroit in 1968. > [@](#): > > Are you talking about the bankers looting £hundreds of billions, MPs and Peer looting the public purse for 25 years through the Fees Office or corporations systematically looting the Treasury through tax avoidance - because I think the 16 and 17-year olds who had their EMA grants cancelled and their youth clubs closed and who don’t think they’ve got a cat in hells chance of getting a job would be interested to know? I don’t give a fuck. Justifying the behavior of these mental children is disgusting. Destroying _my_ house because _you_ didn’t get your handout is unjustifiable. Your mealy-mouth “waah-waah” bullshit is pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/45 "2011-08-09T09:56:28Z")
The post-banking crisis budget cuts are certainly the root of the trouble. Couple of years back, just one mugging would get a happy-slapping ratboy enough dosh to get some trainers, a week’s worth of weed, some cheap cider and still have cash spare for a happy meal. Now, they have to do three stabbings just to get enough for 20 Red Band and a bag of Wotsits. If the people that ain’t robbing cunts were less cash-strapped, those that normally prey on 'em wouldn’t be forced to smash their way into Currys to see how many laptops and 50 inch tellies can fit in a shopping trolley. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/46 "2011-08-09T09:58:40Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Conservative government, cuts in welfare programs, inner city riots… I feel like a teenager again. Yeah, just need to be out there shouting “Maggie! Maggie! Maggie! Out! Out! Out!”, don’t you? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/47 "2011-08-09T10:00:00Z")
\*\*SecondJudith \*\*- I might, \*might \*have been prepared to accept that point of view for the initial trouble in Tottenham, but what earthly reason was there for the other riots? Were all of those people disaffected youths too? Does helping yourself to some electrical goods from a smashed-up store do anything to redress any of their grievances with the Government? No, I contend that the great majority of the rioters were doing it out of sheer mindless thuggery. It’s criminal, pure and simple. You\* don’t \*set fire to an innocent person’s house and go on a destructive rampage just because you have a beef with the Government. Anyone who indulged in that sort of wanton violence deserves prison. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/48 "2011-08-09T10:05:30Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > I don’t give a fuck. Justifying the behavior of these mental children is disgusting. Destroying _my_ house because _you_ didn’t get your handout is unjustifiable. Your mealy-mouth “waah-waah” bullshit is pathetic. Exactly. Their house is being destroyed - or, put in clearer terms, their life opportunites are being destroyed. Just as you consider you have the right to defend your home and property, so are they defending their most valuable and important asset. But it’s always lovely to hear from clueless, cosseted middle class kids now all grown up. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/49 "2011-08-09T10:08:03Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Do you think that these things _start_ in healthy societies? Why would so many people be ready for that “excuse,” if there weren’t deep and long-standing problems? I don’t care what the problems are. This isn’t Libya and Cameron isn’t Gaddaffi. If you have a problem with unemployment, housing or whatever, then you seek a _legal_ solution to your problems. Burning and trashing the place like an enraged ape is never the solution unless you’re living under an oppressive dicatatorship that gives you no peaceful means of protest. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/50 "2011-08-09T10:11:12Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > If you have a problem with unemployment, housing or whatever, then you seek a _legal_ solution to your problems. What’s the legal solution to not being able to see any kind of meaningful future, and having the tools to do something about it taken away from you by a gov that tells you we’re all in this together? ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/51 "2011-08-09T10:11:52Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Exactly. Their house is being destroyed - or, put in clearer terms, their life opportunites are being destroyed. Just as you consider you have the right to defend your home and property, so are they defending their most valuable and important asset. > > But it’s always lovely to hear from clueless, cosseted middle class kids now all grown up. Defending their most important asset? Honestly? So because they feel their life opportunities are under threat, that gives them the right to set fire to private property and put lives at risk and generally tear the place up? Come now, you seem like an intelligent person - are you seriously saying that the rioters were justified in their actions because they felt dissatisfied with their opportunities in life? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/52 "2011-08-09T10:12:20Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Bullshit. What we now see is a bunch of sociopaths burning and pillaging just because they can. Righty ho. Let’s categorise all the people rioting last night as sociopaths. Now, if we’re producing that number of sociopaths as a society, don’t you think we’ve got some serious underlying problems to address? ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/53 "2011-08-09T10:15:25Z")
Dissatisfied? No, not ‘dissatisfied’. That suggests there is a range of of possible outcomes. They don’t live in some bogus propaganda Hollywood dream where you just need to work hard and it’ll all come right, that stuff is just to appease the conscience of the ignorant middle class. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/54 "2011-08-09T10:16:28Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > What’s the legal solution to not being able to see any kind of meaningful future, and having the tools to do something about it taken away from you by a gov that tells you we’re all in this together? Non-violent protest, democracy, voting out leaders you’re unhappy with, I dunno. But I hope you’re not saying that the rioters’ only option was criminality and wanton destruction? And I still don’t accept that that was actually the reason behind most of the rioting. I still belive that while it might have ben the reason for some, the majority of the copycat riots were the fault of people who just wanted to smash things for a laugh and blag a free TV. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/55 "2011-08-09T10:20:17Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Dissatisfied? No, not ‘dissatisfied’. That suggests there is a range of of possible outcomes. > > They don’t live in some bogus propaganda Hollywood dream where you just need to work hard and it’ll all come right, that stuff is just to appease the conscience of the ignorant middle class. Leaving aside your comment about the “ignorant middle class” for a moment, perhaps I turn your question around and ask \*you \*what you think someone can do to change things if they feel their “life opportunities” are under threat. Are you honestly saying that rioting is the only option left to them? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/56 "2011-08-09T10:21:06Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > I still belive that while it might have ben the reason for some, the majority of the copycat riots were the fault of people who just wanted to smash things for a laugh and blag a free TV. Ok. And same question to you. If we’re producing that sort of proportion of violent criminals, don’t you think there could be some serious social problems we need to address? Or shall we just go for a Daily Mail’esque response, neatly pigeonhole the people involved for being evil from birth, and call for birching and hanging? ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/57 "2011-08-09T10:22:22Z")
Fwiw, I’ll accept ‘copycat’ in the sense they can see it’s doable (by example), not in the mindless sense much of the media mean. I’d also add it’s convenient to have them portrayed as ‘mindless’ and in other simplistic caricatures because it effectively transfers blame to them. Watch the interviews the morning after, not of politicians and police but kids. I’m not suggesting these kids are great political theorists but, like most of us, they know when they’ve been had. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/58 "2011-08-09T10:23:22Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Were all of those people disaffected youths too? Many of them are probably a bit old to be called “youths,” but they’re certainly disaffected. Who else do you think does this? As in Detroit '68 or any other big example anyone cares to mention, this is way beyond a simple criminal element. > [@Bibliovore](#): > > Burning and trashing the place like an enraged ape is never the solution unless you’re living under an oppressive dicatatorship that gives you no peaceful means of protest. > [@Bibliovore](#): > > Does helping yourself to some electrical goods from a smashed-up store do anything to redress any of their grievances with the Government? No, and it’s not meant to. It’s not _meant_ to do anything. It’s not a solution, not a plan. It’s a phenomenon. A symptom. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/59 "2011-08-09T10:24:32Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Righty ho. Let’s categorise all the people rioting last night as sociopaths. > > Now, if we’re producing that number of sociopaths as a society, don’t you think we’ve got some serious underlying problems to address? Amen. Never understood this total phobia of trying to understand why something happens. It isn’t the same thing as approving of the actions… ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/60 "2011-08-09T10:25:08Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Leaving aside your comment about the “ignorant middle class” for a moment, perhaps I turn your question around and ask \*you \*what you think someone can do to change things if they feel their “life opportunities” are under threat. Are you honestly saying that rioting is the only option left to them? I believe they honestly believe that, and that they are pretty much right on the money. It’s also relative, the cuts that affect these kids are absolutely fundamental - it’s not about how many times the family can afford to eat out this month, or where to go on holiday. Yet Gov insists on trying to tell them ‘everyone’ is feeling the pinch. This is their life, right here, right now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998.md?page=4)