# No-one pitted the fuckers burning London down yet? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 8, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998 "2011-08-08T21:56:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/61 "2011-08-09T10:27:40Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Yeah, just need to be out there shouting “Maggie! Maggie! Maggie! Out! Out! Out!”, don’t you? :rolleyes: Perish the thought that someone might try to draw a parallel with what happened in the early and mid 1980s. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/62 "2011-08-09T10:30:01Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Ok. And same question to you. If we’re producing that sort of proportion of violent criminals, don’t you think there could be some serious social problems we need to address? > > Or shall we just go for a Daily Mail’esque response, neatly pigeonhole the people involved for being evil from birth, and call for birching and hanging? I completely acknowledge that Britain has social problems, I’ve never said otherwise, but I will never accept that public thuggery and violence is the solution to those problems. Like I said, this isn’t Libya. Any problems we have have to be solved _legally_. I’m not saying that these rioters are evil from birth and beyond redemption, I’m not dehumanising them or saying that some of them might have some legitimate issues, but I _am_ calling for them to be responsible for their actions and face the appropriate legal penalties if they break the law. And god forbid I should ever be a Daily Mail reader! ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/63 "2011-08-09T10:35:34Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Many of them are probably a bit old to be called “youths,” but they’re certainly disaffected. Who else do you think does this? As in Detroit '68 or any other big example anyone cares to mention, this is way beyond a simple criminal element. > > No, and it’s not meant to. It’s not _meant_ to do anything. It’s not a solution, not a plan. It’s a phenomenon. A symptom. Fair enough, and point well made, but if it’s a phenomenon then the people that took part in it should face the consequences for their actions. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/64 "2011-08-09T10:40:16Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Were all of those people disaffected youths too? Almost certainly, yes. > [@Bibliovore](#): > > Fair enough, and point well made, but if it’s a phenomenon then the people that took part in it should face the consequences for their actions. Well, Cameron _is_ having to cut his holiday short, poor lamb. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/65 "2011-08-09T10:42:31Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > I believe they honestly believe that, and that they are pretty much right on the money. It’s also relative, the cuts that affect these kids are absolutely fundamental - it’s not about how many times the family can afford to eat out this month, or where to go on holiday. Yet Gov insists on trying to tell them ‘everyone’ is feeling the pinch. This is their life, right here, right now. If you feel that these kids are right on the money, then I absolutely have to disagree with you. Violent destruction isn’t the answer, and if you honestly believe that they’re right and that they simply had _no other possible option_ except to riot, then I don’t think we’ll ever see eye to eye. Even if it’s “their life, right here, right now”, what gives them the right to endanger the lives of others? Do you feel that they should \*not \*be punished for their actions? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/66 "2011-08-09T10:43:39Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Any problems we have have to be solved _legally_. What if they can’t be? ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/67 "2011-08-09T10:44:00Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > I believe they honestly believe that, and that they are pretty much right on the money. It’s also relative, the cuts that affect these kids are absolutely fundamental - it’s not about how many times the family can afford to eat out this month, or where to go on holiday. Yet Gov insists on trying to tell them ‘everyone’ is feeling the pinch. This is their life, right here, right now. Which cuts are you talking about here? ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/68 "2011-08-09T10:44:57Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > Almost certainly, yes. Sorry, I don’t believe that. Some of them might have been, but not all of them. What about the ones that met through social networking sites for the specific purpose of causing damage and stealing? > [@](#): > > Well, Cameron _is_ having to cut his holiday short, poor lamb. You know what I mean. Do you think that they should not be punished for their actions? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/69 "2011-08-09T10:45:21Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > Well, Cameron _is_ having to cut his holiday short, poor lamb. Isn’t that because he saw the destruction of private property and thought it was a meeting of the Bullingdon Club, and that they never got his new address for the invitation? ---
**Author:** ![Hallucinex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba9def/32.png) [@Hallucinex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hallucinex)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/70 "2011-08-09T10:48:20Z")
Lovely: [http://www.tntmagazine.com/tnt-today/archive/2011/08/09/boy-injured-in-riots-robbed-by-gang-video.aspx](http://www.tntmagazine.com/tnt-today/archive/2011/08/09/boy-injured-in-riots-robbed-by-gang-video.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Galanthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Galanthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galanthus)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/71 "2011-08-09T10:50:32Z")
It’s intersting that a few weeks ago the Guardian was reporting that the Metropolitan Police anti-terror unit was asking the public to report anyone with anarchist sympathies. [http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/31/westminster-police-anarchist-whistleblower-advice](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/31/westminster-police-anarchist-whistleblower-advice) I wonder if they know something that we don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/72 "2011-08-09T10:50:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What if they can’t be? Good question. I honestly believe that if a government has so oppressed its people so as to make peaceful change impossible, then it makes violent protest inevitable. I paraphrased that from John F. Kennedy and it’s a great quote, but my point is that the UK isn’t like that. We don’t live in a totalitarian regime where dissent is crushed and people live in fear of torture, execution or disappearance. Like I said, this isn’t Libya. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/73 "2011-08-09T10:51:29Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Sorry, I don’t believe that. Some of them might have been, but not all of them. What about the ones that met through social networking sites for the specific purpose of causing damage and stealing? Sorry, I must have missed the part where Twitter was a pay service for middle-class and up people only. > [@Bibliovore](#): > > You know what I mean. Do you think that they should not be punished for their actions? I certainly hope so, but they keep getting bonuses and bailouts and who knows what else. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/74 "2011-08-09T10:56:34Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > I honestly believe that if a government has so oppressed its people so as to make peaceful change impossible, then it makes violent protest inevitable. I paraphrased that from John F. Kennedy and it’s a great quote, but my point is that the UK isn’t like that. We don’t live in a totalitarian regime where dissent is crushed and people live in fear of torture, execution or disappearance. Like I said, this isn’t Libya. I know. However, what if they can’t solve their problems legally because the government is simply ignoring them? Not one where dissent is crushed, but simply ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Galanthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Galanthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galanthus)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/75 "2011-08-09T10:57:23Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Good question. > > I honestly believe that if a government has so oppressed its people so as to make peaceful change impossible, then it makes violent protest inevitable. I paraphrased that from John F. Kennedy and it’s a great quote, but my point is that the UK isn’t like that. We don’t live in a totalitarian regime where dissent is crushed and people live in fear of torture, execution or disappearance. Like I said, this isn’t Libya. We do however live in a society where peacefull dissent is utterly ignored. Up thread there is a quote from one of the rioters saying that a few weeks befor they had organised a peacefull march of a couple of thousand and it wasn’t mentioned by the media at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/76 "2011-08-09T10:57:50Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > Sorry, I must have missed the part where Twitter was a pay service for middle-class and up people only. > > I certainly hope so, but they keep getting bonuses and bailouts and who knows what else. Now you’re simply dodging the question, so I’ll ask it again. What about the ones that met through social networking sites for the specific purpose of causing damage and stealing? Were they all dissaffected youths too? And do you think the rioters should face punishment for committing arson, criminal damage, robbery and theft? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/77 "2011-08-09T11:00:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I know. However, what if they can’t solve their problems legally because the government is simply ignoring them? Not one where dissent is crushed, but simply ignored. Another good point. In that case you change the government. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/78 "2011-08-09T11:01:40Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Now you’re simply dodging the question, so I’ll ask it again. What about the ones that met through social networking sites for the specific purpose of causing damage and stealing? Were they all dissaffected youths too? I am not knowledgeable enough to say all, but it does seem most are, yes. What does social networking have to do with it? > [@Bibliovore](#): > > And do you think the rioters should face punishment for committing arson, criminal damage, robbery and theft? If not, why not? I’ve never been philosophically in favour of punitive retribution. I support rehabilitation for offenders and reconstruction. Right now, to me that looks like fundamental change towards social and economic equality, but I’m not holding out hope for that any time soon. > [@villa](#): > > Never understood this total phobia of trying to understand why something happens. It isn’t the same thing as approving of the actions… Seconded, there is a giant excluded middle here, it seems to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/79 "2011-08-09T11:02:34Z")
> [@Galanthus](#): > > We do however live in a society where peacefull dissent is utterly ignored. > > Up thread there is a quote from one of the rioters saying that a few weeks befor they had organised a peacefull march of a couple of thousand and it wasn’t mentioned by the media at all. That was a good quote, and it’s genuinely disturbing to hear that the media basically ignored what sounded like a significant march. But torching building with people in them isn’t the solution. If the government ignores you, change the government. That’s what your vote is for. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/80 "2011-08-09T11:03:57Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > If the government ignores you, change the government. That’s what your vote is for. “If voting changed anything, they’d abolish it.” Ken Livingstone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998.md?page=5)